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Originally Posted by Luminous  I'm only asking him to help out with the dishes now and then. If someone is 6'7, and they are watching someone who is 4'5 trying to reach a high shelf for something, wouldn't it be nice if they helped out? Sure, the little guy probably has the capability, but I'm just talkng general niceness here. |
...and he does
individually. You just need to realize that God having a larger view of things ofttimes means that the problem itself will not be removed but that the help is in our ability to endure and grow from what happens. To use your own analogy rather then getting it off the shelf for us he either provides the step stool so we can reach it ourselves or tells us we shouldn't be getting it.
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Originally Posted by Luminous Fair enough, but I personally don't regard the act of watching people as an act of good. I see the logic of "Oh, lets see who cleans up this mess", but what if one of those kids takes too long and soembody dies? I know, I know, they'll go to 'heaven', but blah, if you're God and you think that's omnibenevolent, you might as well kill everyone. |
How will they learn from their lives if they all just die? Sort of defeats the purpose of life doesn't it.
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Originally Posted by Luminous That makes sense, and that's precisely why I asked why bother with religion anyways. It's like "Be a nice person! If you're a nice person because I told you, you're a bad person! But be a nice person anyways!". Take out religion, and it becomes obvious who's being geneuinely naughty, and who's genuinely nice. |
Not at all since we aren't omnipotent and can't tell why others are doing what they are ourselves. The non-existence wouldn't increase our ability to perceive that.
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Originally Posted by Luminous Ah, what I'm saying is, an omniscient being knows the future by definition, thereby eliminating free will, or making it so God isn't omniscient or omnipotent(If one is perfect, they know everything, also contradicting free will). If something that knows everything exists, the future exists, and if the future exists, we can't decide it. Again, I hate to use such a horribly cliched arguement, but it makes sense to moi. |
Once again that is only true if by observing something you are doing it personally, which is not the case. I can watch a baseball game all I want but that doesn't mean that I personally hit the ball and ran the bases. God knowing all things past and future doesn't remove freewill since he himself is not doing it merely "observing the game". His knowledge of what choices we have/will make does not remove our personal choice at the time we make them; our own perception of time is a linear one after all.
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Originally Posted by Luminous Is it fair to judge someone for eternity based on a relatively short 100-ish years of activity on a planet that, with its limited resources and vastly different ideas, practically breeds strife? Tis like leaving a drug addict in a room full of drugs, then leaving the room saying "If you touch them, I will be very dissapointed, you silly rabbit!" |
Poor analogy since addictions are compulsions that remove choice and the entire point is agency/choice. A better analogy is a child and a candy bar. One of my kids would eat it and one wouldn't. How about you? Those very things you mention are what gives us the opportunity to even choose since how are we to make choices if there are none? As for it being a short time since the "judgment" is on the heart surely the amount of time is unimportant.
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Originally Posted by Luminous I can understand that, but if you had kids, would you want them to be raised in a fairly unforgiving and hostile environment? Would a good parent drop their kids in the bully corner of the playground to see how they cope? Shouldn't parents nurture, rather than watch and judge their kids based on performance? |
You do both. There is nurturing and instructing but you can't nurture a child that won't listen. The "instructions" involve how to avoid or deal with the "bullies' on the playground but doing it is up to us, to our agency. In cases where there is "unforgiving and hostile environment"s to the point that the children in that playground have no chance of avoiding the "bullies" then you get the punishments of God descending on the people scripturally. For example, Sodom and Gomorrah.
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Originally Posted by Luminous Take away the enticement that is the afterlife |
That is impossible without changing the very character of God. The point of religion is that there is an afterlife and often that there was a life before as well. Take away an afterlife and you remove God himself and religion by default leaving nothing to discuss.
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Originally Posted by Luminous Anyways, that's all my input on the matter for now. I suffer from debate fatigue, and it doesn't take too long for me to stop wanting to debate, so I'll just be fading into the background again now, if that's all right. |
Your choice.