Thread: Honour

You'd be surprised how much of the western notion of bushido was popularized by romantic old homosexual nationalists in an age when samurai were already more or less obselete...

Needless to say: warfare is warfare. And while honor was valued, to a point, there were plenty of dirty-dealings (and quite a few people who found a path to glory through trickery... and were celebrated for it in literature).

Samurai didn't fight wars by standing in perfect little lines and facing each other one on one with a referee.

Don't buy the western romantic notion of perfect Japanese honor. Most of it's BS :P

The CONCEPT of honor is just as valued today as it ever was... evidenced by our love for notions of old-time chivalry and samurai codes when there isn't a lot of actual history to hold up that either was much more than ideological largely retroactive romanticism.

There was a code of Bushido... but it was, for most, something legendary and lofty to aspire to, not a strict way of conducting warfare. Ironically it became the most popular and rigid in times of peace (thanks to the gentrification of the samurai class). Bushido is also open to interpretation... which might explain how we went from "calling out your opponent by name" to sneak attacks, fighting to the last man, and kamikaze pilots in WWII (something few would consider either honorable or positive).

Honor is a lovely idea... but it's never been something EASY to come by, or widely practiced to perfection.

Yoshitsune's victory at Yashima was not honorable (though it was brilliant), Yoritomo's slaughtering his wife and children was downright despicable, Nobunaga's pillaging and razing Kyoto was rotten as hell. Annexing Korea was not honorable, the rape of Nanking was not honorable, sneak attacking Pearl Harbor was not honorable... And yet, all the participants became heroes (some more controversial than others).

@tsurara - very well put.
Also to add to that note, Honor is what we make it.
The belief of one man, or another, and what one may perceive as honor, maybe completely opposite in another's point of view.
As tsurara said warfare evolved with the whole world, and such did the mentalities of people.
We are a changing species, and bound to loose things along this chain.

ah, yes! It was so nice back then, when people actually fought with honor! Like, now adays, instead of the concept "don't fight an unarmed aponent" most people think of it as an opertunity to kill someone. Now, I know that sometimes, like in wars, you have no choice but to kill the person, unarmed or not. Just like people going into towns killing children and stuff like that. There basicly isn't anymore honor these days. It's so rare to come across a person who still believes in it. Like I said before, "honor" isn't a concept in wars. But, I do wish sometimes that people still had it. . .it would be a better world really!

Honor... That sort of honor, eh? To me, "honor" always meant self-sacrifice so that others can benefit... "Honor" is just fidelity (sometimes to the point of being mindless and servile) slapped on with high value put on by some society, organization, culture, etc. Human nature, bleh. Adding value to something like that makes it easier to get other people to work for you, whether it's in a gang, a military, etc.

But that's my opinion. I'm guessing everyone else here has drastically different views...

And like Tsurara has stated, way more often than not, this "honor" has been idolized and romanticized by Western cultures... And that ain't the only culture who valued such loyalty, you know? And still, it's clear that "honor" is valued today... Historical fiction, to even American comic books with superheroes on them.

The biggest change I can see with "honor" is that more people nowadays are putting more value in their lives than self-sacrifice, though they still revere others that show "honor".

I have no idea how fighting can be honourable alltogether, though of course it's a greater achievment if you can beat a person in a close-up fight than just shooting him/her. But killing a person can not be honourable, even if there is a serious reason, it can sometimes be justified, but to call it honourable is just too much.

I don't think though that the feeling of honour in people have dissapeared, people have become less responsible, but there are still some good souls ^^

Originally Posted by tsurara

You'd be surprised how much of the western notion of bushido was popularized by romantic old homosexual nationalists in an age when samurai were already more or less obselete...

Needless to say: warfare is warfare. And while honor was valued, to a point, there were plenty of dirty-dealings (and quite a few people who found a path to glory through trickery... and were celebrated for it in literature).

Samurai didn't fight wars by standing in perfect little lines and facing each other one on one with a referee.

Don't buy the western romantic notion of perfect Japanese honor. Most of it's BS :P

The CONCEPT of honor is just as valued today as it ever was... evidenced by our love for notions of old-time chivalry and samurai codes when there isn't a lot of actual history to hold up that either was much more than ideological largely retroactive romanticism.

There was a code of Bushido... but it was, for most, something legendary and lofty to aspire to, not a strict way of conducting warfare. Ironically it became the most popular and rigid in times of peace (thanks to the gentrification of the samurai class). Bushido is also open to interpretation... which might explain how we went from "calling out your opponent by name" to sneak attacks, fighting to the last man, and kamikaze pilots in WWII (something few would consider either honorable or positive).

Honor is a lovely idea... but it's never been something EASY to come by, or widely practiced to perfection.

Yoshitsune's victory at Yashima was not honorable (though it was brilliant), Yoritomo's slaughtering his wife and children was downright despicable, Nobunaga's pillaging and razing Kyoto was rotten as hell. Annexing Korea was not honorable, the rape of Nanking was not honorable, sneak attacking Pearl Harbor was not honorable... And yet, all the participants became heroes (some more controversial than others).

Took the words right out of my mouth. There really isant any more or any less "honour" sense then. "Honour" is over romanticised. When you look back on the entire histoy of man kind, every war was faught was with out Honour, not in war, or in a fight, you play to win (so to speek) To many people fall into this concept and thats what makes them easy to manipulate and to justiy their actions. The concept of "Honour" Its self is good more or less. But that fact is it has really no rightful place in the world. There really never was to begine with right from the start simply because its Human nature to fight dirty and increace the chance of you to win then fight honourably and most likely lose. Yes its dispicable that people will resort to doing horrible things but their is nothing you can do about it but fight back and throw dirt in their eyes as well.

Theres not many of what you may call "honorable people" left in days world.