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Thread: Choice? Or born with it?

  1. #57
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    Re: Choice? Or born with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by obliteration
    If we truly don't want God in our lives, I believe he'll respect our wishes, though he'll use occurrence and circumstance to present an opportunity to return. Nonetheless, he's freakishly - and I mean borderline disturbingly concerned for us. For "You made all the delicate parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb. Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous - how well I know it. You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb. You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed." (Psalm chapter 139, verses 13-16) And "What is the price of two sparrows - one copper coin? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it. And the very hairs on your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are more valuable to God than a whole flock of sparrows." (Matthew chapter 10, verses 29-31)
    While I know you do agree with some of my points, I would like to state that I am not a great supporter of the biblical texts. Not to mention your quotation was written before science had discovered the innerworkings of conception and the development of a fetus.

    The only thing that can be trusted from christianity are the Ten Commandments, those are our only words directly from God. Spare me these writings of people who had a lot of time on their hands. The bible has been changed and translated so many times it's lost a lot of it's original meaning....not that it meant much originally anyway because again, it was written by man.

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    Re: Choice? Or born with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by kastelic4444
    Ok, explain when a person has had none of these bad things happen to them, but is depressed anyway. They have an awesome life, but still manage to be depressed anyhow. Its a chemical imbalance.
    You're quite right. One's genetic make-up and certain external factors such as dietary habits play a part in things like depression.

    I'll quote myself from earlier on in this thread to better explain myself. "In other words our addictions and dependencies, our modern idols, effect those around us, especially our own kin. The pastor in our college group mentioned one man - I don't recall his name, unfortunately - who spent many years studying this phenomena. He initially started creating a family tree tracing back to the time his ancestors came to America. After he had finished, he went down the list of every living relative he could possibly find and interviewed them not only about themselves, but their families both deceased and living alike in order to test the proposition of generational sin. From what I was told, the man eventually started color coding (such as red for temperamental problems, blue for alcoholism, green for divorces, yellow for pornography, orange for adultery, et cetera) various addictions and dependencies and traced them as they literally flooded down the generational line. Hoping to share his findings the man wrote a book on the matter and it was published some time ago. The next time I speak to my pastor, I'll bring it up and cite the author and the book."

    But by no means is one's family background a justification, an excuse for one's actions. They may be contributing factors, yes, but it is ultimately a matter of choice, as indicated by the first post in this thread. Our choices are our own, and we are the ones to suffer the consequences as a result.

    EDIT: Tossing in a response to FRR_Vegeta's reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by frr_vegeta
    While I know you do agree with some of my points, I would like to state that I am not a great supporter of the biblical texts. Not to mention your quotation was written before science had discovered the innerworkings of conception and the development of a fetus.

    The only thing that can be trusted from christianity are the Ten Commandments, those are our only words directly from God. Spare me these writings of people who had a lot of time on their hands. The bible has been changed and translated so many times it's lost a lot of it's original meaning....not that it meant much originally anyway because again, it was written by man.
    Was it not Moses who wrote the Torah, the first five books of the Bible in which the Decalogue was provided? Might I ask why you acknowledge some parts of the Bible and not the others?

    As far as science is concerned, I think our modern revelations are quite exciting, but they should not be used as an intellectual crutch. It was but a mere five hundred years ago that we claimed the earth was flat. Though we've certainly come quite a distance since then, there is still a mind-numbingly large (perhaps even infinite) amount of stuff out there to cram into our heads. It is as though our knowledge can be likened to taking a pen, creating a single dot on an incredibly long thread, and wrapping said thread around the world multiple times over. That is the extent of our knowledge. Actually, scratch that. That is a grotesque exaggeration of the extent of our knowledge. Moreover, all intellectual establishments - both science and religion - are based on certain accepted assumptions. Ultimately, it comes down to what you accept to be true. And I have accepted the Word of God to be true, as has been revealed to me by means of personal revelation.
    Last edited by obliteration; Nov 30, 2005 at 03:53 PM.

    [ Romans 1:6: And you are included among those Gentiles who have been called to belong to Jesus Christ. ]

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    Re: Choice? Or born with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by kastelic4444
    Well the behavier to want to engage in those activitys had to come from somewhere in the brain. So i guess your saying also someone isnt born a bad seed??
    Yes, I am. They may have tendencies whether based on genetics, environment, or simply personality (anyone with kids can tell you about that one) but the choice is still theirs. It's that simple. What i said before concerning genetics can also be held for the brain.
    "You cannot have it both ways. Either gentics only provide a disposition and we still have choice or genetics determine what we will be and there is no choice.
    ...
    If you claim the second then we have to likewise absolve alcoholics and murderers with genetic predispotions of any responsibility for their actions."
    It is the same with the brain, if you claim exemption for one it must apply to all. Exemption in any case is unnessesary since science has found the opposite to be true. What we do and what choices we make determine the makeup of our brain not the other way around.

    Your example of depression and other chemical inbalances do not apply either since such things are chemical and said chemicals do not originate from the brain but the thyroids and other glands. It is mearly the brain that is effected by them.

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    Re: Choice? Or born with it?

    Sometimes you are born with it like example; a DNA desorder created when the DNA was replicating itself before you were born. Or sometimes is a choice that you have to make like example; be or not to be gay.

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    Re: Choice? Or born with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by obliteration
    Was it not Moses who wrote the Torah, the first five books of the Bible in which the Decalogue was provided? Might I ask why you acknowledge some parts of the Bible and not the others?
    I do not know much about the Torah, but I do know that Moses was not a God, and therefore I would certainly take whatever is written in this Torah with a grain of salt. I do not acknowledge any part of the bible directly. I was merely referring earlier to Adam and Eve as an example of "god's creation" and if god was involved in creation, his involvement ceased with the creation of the first humans, and he has left it to us.


    Again, the only part of the religion I can trust in are the Ten Commandments, and that Jesus was our supposed Messiah.

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    Re: Choice? Or born with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna
    Yes, I am. They may have tendencies whether based on genetics, environment, or simply personality (anyone with kids can tell you about that one) but the choice is still theirs. It's that simple. What i said before concerning genetics can also be held for the brain.
    "You cannot have it both ways. Either gentics only provide a disposition and we still have choice or genetics determine what we will be and there is no choice.
    ...
    If you claim the second then we have to likewise absolve alcoholics and murderers with genetic predispotions of any responsibility for their actions."
    It is the same with the brain, if you claim exemption for one it must apply to all. Exemption in any case is unnessesary since science has found the opposite to be true. What we do and what choices we make determine the makeup of our brain not the other way around.

    Your example of depression and other chemical inbalances do not apply either since such things are chemical and said chemicals do not originate from the brain but the thyroids and other glands. It is mearly the brain that is effected by them.

    Well i guess its how you look at things then. You can say the thyroids are causeing it, or since the brain is affected and making the actions occur, it the brains fault.

    I think its a case by case situation, so yes it can be both ways. Sometimes genetics may be providing a disposition, and sometimes genetics determine what we will be and there is no choice.



    PS: shouldnt this be in the debates section now, since its turned into one.
    Last edited by Miroku4444; Nov 30, 2005 at 04:40 PM.

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    Re: Choice? Or born with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by frr_vegeta
    I do not know much about the Torah, but I do know that Moses was not a God, and therefore I would certainly take whatever is written in this Torah with a grain of salt. I do not acknowledge any part of the bible directly. I was merely referring earlier to Adam and Eve as an example of "god's creation" and if god was involved in creation, his involvement ceased with the creation of the first humans, and he has left it to us.


    Again, the only part of the religion I can trust in are the Ten Commandments, and that Jesus was our supposed Messiah.
    And I was merely referring to other Biblical texts wherein it has been revealed, should you choose to believe it, that God is concerned with every detail of our lives. The second passage I used regarding the sparrows was actually the words of Jesus himself. 'Twas just expounding upon your Biblical citations with more Biblical citations.

    You are free to believe what ever you so please, but if you trust the Decalogue and that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, then I would encourage you to spend some time, if you haven't already, reading through the Scriptures with an open mind. When my mom bought me my Bible last June, I believed that Jesus was the Christ and himself God, but, like you, I took it with a grain of salt. Clearly, my opinion has changed since.

    Here are a couple things to consider: If you accept that Jesus was the Messiah, he often quoted the prophet Isaiah; this would argue that the other writings found within the Bible aren't just from crazed loons, but people whose writings are approved of by God himself. Furthermore, I would also encourage you to read Psalm chapter 22; in particular, verses 11 through 18. King David (yes the same David who slew Goliath) was prophesying about Christ's death 1500 years before the actual occurrence.

    [ Romans 1:6: And you are included among those Gentiles who have been called to belong to Jesus Christ. ]

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    Re: Choice? Or born with it?

    Oie I didn't realize it wasn't already in there.

    *Fixing*

    And with this movement I'm hoping we can keep this civil. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. But it can be fun to try and prove your own.

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