Thread: japanese (the language)

Jeeb - great post!!

And yes you're perfectly corrent - it is "Kooen e ikimashita" or "kooen ni ikimashita" ! I blame the fact that it was late at night for my bad particle usage - or that's my excuse any way.

As Jeeb mentions in the previous situation "ni" or "e" would be the appropriate particle because you need to indicate directionality: where were you going? to the park! the particle "o" shows a direct object - in correct usage here.

Jeeb - I'm not sure if we were taught differently but I was always taught to romanize "wo" as "o" and "he" which is acually pronouced "e" as "e" Following that, even though kooen is spelled kouen in japanese in order to indicate the correct pronunciation one tends to double the vowel to produce "oo" instead of "ou".

see what fun it is everyone to discuss japanese once you start learning it!!

FD

a wonderful post made by you jeeb im very impressed on your knowlage of the japanese languge itself. i too myself am learning. and some one that i already know. now jeeb id like to ask you. my name is a form ja several japanese writing (to my knowlage) pleaxe tell me what my Screen Name means? and if right ill give you a prize if wrong ill tell you myself what my name means. and it is right. when i got this name for my book im writing my friend had a japanese book with him. so i would like to know if you know what "Akurie Kakudo" means.


with my knowlage of the japanese language i have sung and tanrslated some songs. some japanese i learn from all the anime i watch in japenese then subtitle. i think everyone here says thats one way they are this far with learning japanese. but my friends are teaching me the language of japanese. i also look up some of my favorite japanese songs and get them translated like i said before. i dont translate them myself but its fun to try anf fail. (lol). the song im am listening to now is the inuyasha theme song (ending i think 6) called " Shinjitsu no Uta" which (im hopeing im correct, correct me if im wrong) means "Eternal Kiss" or something with the word "kiss" or "crimsion" in the title. im just trying my best to tanslate. but i do know that when the japanese speak isnt that the words are said backwords to us and forwards to them. ive seen some sentences with them speaking to one another but ..

1. are they saying the words backwords to form the sentence?
2. are they moving the words around to form a sentence? (as in "stupied pervert/ lecher" = baka sukebei" or "sukebei baka"? im not sure if im spelling pervert right.)
3. and when they talk do they use certain words to subtitle others?

this is just what i want to know^


with what my friend is teaching me i only know a few words by heart like...

sukebei= pervert. (FYI im not sure what writing there all in as in katakana or w.e)
kuso =sh*t
Airhead or ditz= aho
what=nani
whats wrong= doshta no (mind you i dont know if im spelling any of these words right)
gomen= sorry
onee-sama= big sister
onii-chan= big brother (thats how i call my best ((guy)) friend big brother. am i right?)
and i alrady knew about..
ayane= form of a girls name "ayame"
hei= yes (now reading your more informed information im glade i know theres more then one form of yes)
ohayou= good morning
konichiiwa= good after noon (or some form of after 12 pm of hello)


and i know how to say other insulting things in japanese to other people (so they have no idea what im saying and cant say anything more insulting back unless they know what im saying =0o= which never happens here)

that is my knowlage of the japanese language so far and i hope to learn more. thankx!

Originally Posted by Akurei

so i would like to know if you know what "Akurie Kakudo" means.

Any chance you'd be providing the kanji for that? onegaishimasu.

Originally Posted by Akurei

1. are they saying the words backwords to form the sentence?

Word order for Japanese: Subject Object Verb (basically)

Now if you're talking some poetry there are of course objects dropped, and subjects dropped and order screwed up - just like in any other language so that doesn't really count.

The only language that I know to be truly modular, in the sense that word order doesnt matter is Latin. There is no true word order for Latin the words can be placed in any order depending on the ending. In my opinion that makes latin the only true poetic language, because having such fluidity of placement without having to worry that the sentence isn't going to make sense adds a whole new dimension to the meaing of the word: emphasis.

FD

Originally Posted by Falcon_Delta

The only language that I know to be truly modular, in the sense that word order doesnt matter is Latin. There is no true word order for Latin the words can be placed in any order depending on the ending. In my opinion that makes latin the only true poetic language, because having such fluidity of placement without having to worry that the sentence isn't going to make sense adds a whole new dimension to the meaing of the word: emphasis.

It also makes it a B*TCH to translate if you can't remember your endings well .

Trust me. My teacher just started us on poetry last year, and we were like, "WTF?!"...

Granted, it improved my translation quality A LOT afterwards.

Note of importance to those who are (or will) study Latin: try your hand at translating poetry. Or even go from English to Latin. Makes you remember your endings!

But I'm off-topic now...

Originally Posted by Falcon_Delta

Any chance you'd be providing the kanji for that? onegaishimasu.

im sorry i dont know it. but ill tell you anyway so you might be able to tell me it means "Demon Angel".

Wow... A lot of fun, it seems </sarcasm>. But, anyways...

The wo/o or he/e difference in transcription is just due to a selection of different transcriptions. I prefer to use the one that keeps the 'u' (does not add an '-' over the transcripted symbol or does not use 'oo' as 'ou' - on the long run that has kept my mistakes in such things to the minimum) and marks the furigana as it is ('he' is written with the 'h-'- table hiragana, so I transcribe it as it is written, which makes the particle easier to see for beginners because there's already a word that is 'e' [painting and the couple of others that have the same way of speaking it]).

So it's just that I have selected my way and you have selected yours. As far as I understand this far we're both right. Even something as ugly as this is right (example taken from the official transcription method of Japanese in Russia [and I describe it like that just because I don't remember the name of it - it is used widely in other countries as well - Fred Gallagher seemed to have used it in Megatokyo with mistakes on page 7XX's original version]) : tidzu (chizu - map). So what I say (write) and what you say (write) is practically right, but just transcribed in another way. It's good as long as all stay close to some standard and not wonder off to something that's very close to misspelling (Akurei Kakudo and others, pay attention when romanizing words!). If not sure, use the IME in Windows/Linux/'whatever system you use' to write in Japanese kana.

Then: 'Shinjitsu no uta' == 'The song of the truth'

Now when Akurei Kakudo said 'Demon Angel' I figured out one of the words - 'Akuryou' (悪霊), which was somehow transcribed as 'Akurie'. (^_^) Kakudo is a bit harder, because its meaning is 'the point of view' and any word for angel is like the word 'tenshi', the kanjis of which have no such reading. Thus it seems to be another misspelling. Check your dictionary or something in order to get it all right (and if I'm wrong correct me by showing the kana writing or the kanjis). And by the way, such words are not usually used as names, so it's a bit funny (^_^).

Then, when answering to your question 2:

• 'sukebei na baka' == lecherous fool (sukebei is a 'na'-adjective)
• 'baka na sukebei' == foolish leach (if sukebei was not an adjective this would be right (^_^) ) (can the word 'sukebee' be used for this, I don't remember)

It's all in the order of the words.

Subtitle? This word just gives me a big 'he---------!?'. Do you mean the levels of humility? If yes - they do use different words for that. Like 'otaku' for 'you' or 'your house' and 'ee' for 'yes' instead of 'anata' or 'hai'.

I won't go into some of the misspellings found in Akurei Kakudo's vocabulary, but some corrections: Ayane is not the same as 'ayame', 'konnichiwa' is more like 'good day' ('good afternoon' is not wrong, though) since it can be used from about 11 o'clock all until 4 in the evening and '%name% no oniisan' or '%name%-san' should be more right (in the first the name is the friend's, in other it's the brother's) than just 'oniichan' - if you're a female, that is. If you're a male by sex, the %name%-san is officially the only way to go. Oniichan is for use when you're pretty close or if you're a young girl that has just seen a handsome teacher (not only that but you get the picture (^_^) ) whose name she doesn't know and talks about him ("Reiko, ano kakkoii oniisan wa dare?"). Then 'aho' is more like 'idiot' or 'stupid' (with a little bit of 'crazy').

And then be very, very cautious about the usage of 'rude' words. You can get people pissed by just using 'omae' or 'antta', not to include the really rude ones. Therefore language filtering is needed when you're speaking, especially if to elders.

Then an "update" on the textbooks: If you're planning to take an official test in Japanese (clickie) ( the "JEES Japanese Language Proficiency Test", which'll prove to your employer or other people officially that you can use Japanese to a particular level [from 4-kyuu to 1-kyuu]) there's a number of books that'll help you know all the 100-2000 kanji that you'll have to know plus all the writing rules and the use of various forms and ways of saying things.

Of course books like that are propably hard to get from abroad (I'd think that only the biggest cities of most countries could have them), since they usually aren't available in such big numbers here, either (I had to go to Yokohama in order to get some of them). But don't expect them to be 1) easy or 2) in English, since they're preparing you for a test that has English only on the front page.

As for recommendations, I'll post some later, since I'll have to get a bit of a "touch" to their quality.

Originally Posted by JEEB

First of all, the most common (correct) ways of writing the names of the characters in roman alphabet are these:

• ロマ字 (ろまじ) - romaji (from roma [Rome] and ji [a character {in an alphabet}])
• 片仮名 『カタカナ』 (かたかな) - katakana
• 平仮名 (ひらがな) - hiragana
• 漢字 (かんじ) - kanji

Things like katikana or romanji make me think weird things (Romanji sounds like a name).

And then to the comments for Kiri79:

• Ohayou (or ohayoo) - "Good morning", not 'hey' (' -gozaimasu' can be added for further respect [forgot the word - humility?])
• Okaasan and Otousan (or otoosan) - Right, but you should remeber that when talking to strangers/outsiders of the family the words 'haha' and 'chichi' are used instead. Of course this depends on the closeness of those people to you and your family, but it's usual that these are used to 'strangers'.
• Niichan - an overly cute way of saying 'big brother' (ani) with the a/o deleted in front and "-chan" (a honorific used to address [usually female] people that are below you in age) put into the end. Usually used by young females (girls) because they speak in a way like that. People of the male sex should use 'Oniisan' or 'Ani' to address their older brother and relate to him in speech.
• Iie - Yes, it's got a double-i.
• Hai - completely right, but, if you want to impress someone or address a teacher or any other person that is clearly higher than you in rankings, use 'Ee'
• Youkai - A mischievous small demon, or as my Seiko dictionary says - 'hobgoblin'
• Hanyou - I'd say that the meaning you say exists when used with other words (as 'han' means - boldly translated - 'half'), but my dictionary says "Multipurpose" or "versatile", meaning it's the 'half'- part of the meaning you thought it meant. Or it's just a combination of 'han' (half) and 'you' (the first part of 'youkai'), which would lean towards your meaning
• Miko - actually the meaning is 'a maiden in the service of a Shinto shrine' or 'medium' ^_^
• Koi - not 'loved', but 'love' (a bit more physical meaning earlier, but now it's a lot like 'ai', which means 'love', too (and you don't say 'watashi wa anata wo koishiteru', don't you? For that the verb 'ai suru' is there.)
• Koishii - lonely, homesick, 'wanting the love he/she remembers'
• Utenshi - This is a hard one, it's propably got the 'shi' kanji (like 'tenshi' - a 'heaven' 'person' - which means "angel"), but the "uten"- part really kicks me off (uten == rainy weather), which would lead to "rainy weather person". Although there may be additional meanings and ways to write this word (god I love the kanji system), I - at my level of Japanese - cannot recognize this word. I think I'll ask my teachers or friends at school about the origins of this word (if it's not misspelled).
• Jinkouteki (-na) - A small mistake, and now the translation would be 'artificial or false/made up'
• Hanshu - Now I searched and searched until I finally put this word into a translator - it apparently is a rank from the feudal era (hence not used anymore) as the translation I get is: "Feudal clan main thing" and with added 'person'- kanji it means "Feudal clan master", which is not quite "general". The word 'taishou' is used now as the word "general" in military ranks.
• Ayane - a female name, 'ayame' is the iris
• Doumo Arigatou - 'A lot of thanks', as 'doumo arigatou gozaimasu' is "thank you very much". The 'doumo' can be used as an individual word with the meaning of "thanks". Just don't use it to elders.
• Gomen - 'sorry' and the form "Gomennasai" can be used for humility or when addressing elders (and people higher than you in ranks etc. etc.). Then "ni" you used was a misspell of "ne", which is a word that doesn't fully translate into English. The "Gomen ne."- sentence is very girly and means something like "excuse me". At other times it can be used like "Ano ne." (but hey), "Kore desu ne?" ([It's] This, right?) and in many other variations. Usually it is for getting attention or to expect a comment on the said thing.
• Hontou - "Truth"/"Real". Again, the "ne" is there from the sentence.

You have quite a bunch of old words in your vocabulary, Kiri79. And some that were written wrong. Pick up a book about Japanese and study (^_^).

HibikiLink: Three ways of speaking Japanese? Do you mean the informal and the "address to elders"- types or the 'on' and 'kun' readings of kanji. By any way, Japanese isn't spoken in three different ways (^_^). Of course there are dialects (like kansai-ben ["Wakarahen!"]) but let's not get into them, shall we.

Falcon_Delta: Isn't "Watashi wa kouen wo ikimashita" "I went in the park", because "Watashi wa kouen wo hashirimashita" means "I ran in the park"? "Watashi wa kouen he ikimashita" would be "I went to the park", right? Or did make a mistake somewhere along my studies?

My experience:

I have studied Japanese for two years now and have a little confidence in some of my (very) basic skills. I know the kanas and about 150 kanjis (writing and reading) and already possess the ability to communicate somehow with native Japanese in Japanese about various subjects. I live in Japan now until January 2006 and, as Falcon_Delta said, it helps Japanese to develop much faster than usually. But you can simulate that with living around only Japanese. And, although I've corrected people, I'm still at the level of an 8-year-old in writing/reading in Japanese (the second year of school). Therefore if you spot mistakes in my texts, please inform me about them. I'm not here to show off, I'm here to learn and give a shed a little light for those who got some things a bit wrong. Within my abilities, that is.

Personally I despise books that don't give you kanji to chew, like the one by Gakken (about 300 pages and not a single kanji), because so many things in Japan (some of which can be exported to western countries) contain a heck of a lot of kanji. For example, newspapers, magazines and manga (some kanji-related jokes are untranslate'able).

The only real study programs I've taken (study books bought) not including the Gakken one are: A Russian "Novice's Japanese" (Japonskij dlja nachinajushih) which is printed on paper a bit bigger than A4 and is currently standing as my favourite series, it's perfect for self-study as it keeps the pace fast and constantly gives you new challenges. Then there's the one I'm doing now - Kumon, which I hate because of its looping style. It's guaranteed that something stucks in your head but it really tires you even after only one hour of reading per day. Tsk, not my style. Should be better in a classroom, but for self-study...

Wow. Thanks, (or is it Doumo?) JEEB. Your knowledge on Japanese language is stunning. I'll use your tips in the future. Thanks, (or doumo) again!