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Thread: Seperation of Church and state

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    Re: Seperation of Church and state

    I am right now agnostic so I must say I think they should be seperated
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    Re: Seperation of Church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefblackhammer
    Wow I had no idea that the church dated that far back even for people who believe in religion, when exactly did the church begin?
    The church was established back in ancient Rome but was frequently destroyed by those who believed it interfered in politics
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefblackhammer
    Also why exactly does it bother you? What about freedom of speech bothers you? Wait it is the message that they are giving out, but why does that bother you? I mean it doesn't bother me when someone doesn't have the same beliefs as me so why might it bother you? The whole "it isn't thier beliefs it is that they impose them on everyone or they use thier position as an elected official to force religion where it doesn't belong!" doesn't really fly does it?
    In my oppinion freedom of speech is one thing that I am all for aswell as freedom of religion but I am highly against confusion of the 2. You have a right to be who you are, say who you are and so forth but when you use this to support a political belief not everyone can follow b/c of these rights. Don't get me wrong I am definatly not saying that every one should be the same religion. I myself am I diest but nothing I believe is within there speeches and that does not bother me at all but the fact that I can not follow them b/c in my eyes what they believe is bullshit.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefblackhammer
    Saying it is the act of them "forcing" it on people is a joke, I mean come on. Your options are to turn the channel, walk away or hey wait a minute you could just ignore it! But hey why should you have to change anything, you have rights too. What if I take your approach, I mean just because I hear people every day saying "God %$#@ this or God &@^& that" why shouldn't they change for me? But then again do you see me caring?
    This I agree with, one has the power to turn off the tv and such so yeah maybe I wrote that in a wrong way
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefblackhammer
    NO and why not? Because religion is between yourself and whom you choose to worship or not and as long as I am good with how I believe why would the belief of other bother me? They are either going to accept my beliefs or not, plain and simple. If you ask me all these people going around saying I am offend you told me or even eluded to your religion and I can't handle people telling me about "God" makes me wonder how these people function in the US.
    b/c it can be all around offensive, just like the thought that 2 guys kissing on tv is wrong and should be censored (but thats not the issue)
    Everyone wants thier side and oppinions noticed and turning to religion narrows the scope of who the world cares about, I mean in the eyes of those who are offended.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefblackhammer
    Why you ask, well lets see American money has "In God We Trust" on it so they can't use that. They can't go to court because even the Supreme Court has several stone carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments. They can't say the pledge of allegiance because it has "Under God" in it. There is a church of some kind on every corner so they can't leave their homes. Most places in the US have TV stations with gasp religious programming; darn they got onto radio too. Oh no, some churches go "soul winning" and may knock on my door so I am not even safe there!
    I am not against this entirly b/c I do not say the pledge I just stand, but as for the carvings you speak of, if thats the case, why not also have the pillars of islam and so forth.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefblackhammer
    I am not trying to upset you or belittle your feelings I am just trying to get you to see that they are silly; religion is everywhere. If it isn't for you then just say hey that isn't for me and go on with your life. Yes maybe some politicians use that to play on the religious community but that is still something they will have to live with, no skin off my back?

    Again I am not trying to offend you, I hope you will consider my words.
    I highly appreciate you responding like this b/c I was looking for a debate. As for religion is everywhere, yes, but my statement is that it would be better if it wasen't in government. No one speaks of the constitution in church and/or prayer why is it okay for god and such to be in politics

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    Re: Seperation of Church and state

    Well there wouldn't be a seperation between church and state if they didn't make an ass out of themselves by lying to the people back a hundreds years ago, thats why we had the Reniassance era which translate to rebirth, meaning rebirth of humankind, leaving the nest of religion. Still, we can never purely seperate ourselves from religion...well unless your a atheist, alot of laws are based on religious text, like stealing and killing is wrong etc. etc.

    The reason why it is either christian/catholics is because of the Colonial age. Spain, Britain, Portugal and France was either christians,catholics or protestants. So obviously if a country have been colonized then they will spread or force their religion and believes on the people and of course migration played a role as well. Basically, our present are made from our past.

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    Re: Seperation of Church and state

    Totally agree...the christian law of love is the base for all secular laws

  5. #13
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    Re: Seperation of Church and state

    Quote Originally Posted by Citara
    The church was established back in ancient Rome but was frequently destroyed by those who believed it interfered in politics
    Sorry I was being a little factious with that comment as I have been a Christian for 16 years and study in great detail theology, the church (assuming you are referring to the “Christian Church”) did start back in ancient Rome so you are very much correct, more specifically somewhere between 36-60 A.D. depending on your definition of establishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citara
    In my oppinion freedom of speech is one thing that I am all for aswell as freedom of religion but I am highly against confusion of the 2. You have a right to be who you are, say who you are and so forth but when you use this to support a political belief not everyone can follow b/c of these rights. Don't get me wrong I am definatly not saying that every one should be the same religion. I myself am I diest but nothing I believe is within there speeches and that does not bother me at all but the fact that I can not follow them b/c in my eyes what they believe is bullshit.
    I agree (which addresses your topic header) that church and state should be separate but in this sense. It is completely acceptable to practice ones religion where and how they see fit within legal bounds. This would include a “prayer” to open say the State of the Union address or openly speaking towards their religion as long as they are speaking as their personal beliefs and not as a consensus for how the nation should believe. Where it crosses the bounds of separation of church and state is when, a church tries to control political offices, when a particular religion is “legally” adopted as the national religion, or when a office of the state interferes with the religious practices of a church when that church is within given legal bounds (is referring to things like not stoning people as that would break many laws in the US).

    Quote Originally Posted by Citara
    This I agree with, one has the power to turn off the tv and such so yeah maybe I wrote that in a wrong way
    No need for further comment from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citara
    b/c it can be all around offensive, just like the thought that 2 guys kissing on tv is wrong and should be censored (but thats not the issue)
    Everyone wants thier side and oppinions noticed and turning to religion narrows the scope of who the world cares about, I mean in the eyes of those who are offended.
    The only way it should be offensive is if it is “forced” meaning “I am right, this is the only way to believe and I am going to tell you all about weather you want to hear it or not” Simply practicing a religion openly shouldn’t merit offence, that would be like saying I want you to respect the fact that your religion bothers me and since I don’t believe in it you shouldn’t practice it in front of me.

    Even though I have other opinions in removing myself form the area I shouldn’t have to respect your right to believe the way you do and practice it openly? I am not offended you are a deist and chose to make this thread which presented the idea that my belief are B/S in your mind, thus people shouldn’t be offened I am even now openly practing/confirming my belief in religion. If the attitude is that is great you believe that way but it isn’t for me (on both ends) then there is no room for offence as long as I stated earlier it isn’t “forced.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Citara
    I am not against this entirly b/c I do not say the pledge I just stand, but as for the carvings you speak of, if thats the case, why not also have the pillars of islam and so forth.
    I used that as an example of the fact that it is everywhere, as to why not have Islam pillars. Well you have to understand Christianity and biblical principals largely influenced the constitution and many of our early laws. Hence why the carvings are there, not as a “hey Christianity is the way” but as a homage to what our laws were developed upon. I have no problem with other religions, if our laws had been based off of Islam I would have no problems with it being there as it is a historical representation of where the history of our laws comes from, not an epitaph of our nations forced religion


    Quote Originally Posted by Citara
    I highly appreciate you responding like this b/c I was looking for a debate. As for religion is everywhere, yes, but my statement is that it would be better if it wasen't in government. No one speaks of the constitution in church and/or prayer why is it okay for god and such to be in politics
    Churches are actually very limited in what they can say about politics, if they say the wrong thing in the eyes of the government then the church looses their not for profit status. In Bible College you are allowed to teach US history in a biblical light. Such as the founding fathers that were Christians, which weren’t and what laws were influenced by the Bible/Christianity.


  6. #14
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    Re: Seperation of Church and state

    I believe the church and the state should be separate. Though religion and the church are the ways people believe, the issues that show up in the country today mainly abortion and such, also things such as assisted suicide and relative proxies(two words "Terry Shiavo") should be looked upon without your beliefs influencing your decision, I think this because, everybody has a different belief system and when you must make decsions that affect everyone in the country, you must not have one person's beliefs or 100 persons beliefs affect the decision for that group of people. I don't believe in politicians quoting bible verses nor having campaigns centered around religion mainly becuase I want someone who can look at the issue without putting his influences into it, just like you don't want a judge who uses religion or the church when making verdicts on cases instead of focusing on the facts of the case.

    Also, the church may not have that much power in terms of policitcal statements, but they do have 1. voters and 2. money. They may be non-profit, but whats to stop any religious organization which has ties to a religion or church from making a campaign contribution or have a lobbyist in order to sway opinion on laws and such... which brings me to my next point. I don't want religion in government becasue I feel that when religion is inside the government, somebody is paying politicians money in order to get the vote to go their way on important issues.

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  7. #15
    Otaku Patrick Chan may be famous one day Patrick Chan may be famous one day Patrick Chan's Avatar
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    Re: Seperation of Church and state

    i tink this topic is dry...i mean really dry....maybe we shud leave it to the politicians

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