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Thread: Is the U.S. gov. trying to make us dumber?

  1. #25
    Otaku dark_glaive may be famous one day dark_glaive may be famous one day
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    Standardized testing is no good for the following reasons:

    Say the government actually got hardcore and created a decent standard and said "If you can't perform this well on this test, you cannot advance further in high school and/or graduate." Parents would raise hell because a decently high standard is bound to exclude a lot of people. So, in order to prevent such a catastrophe, the government sets the bar low enough such that only the really really worthless students can't pass it. With such a low bar, standarized testing means shit. Now, when parents complain to the government about the worthless kids that they raised, the government can say "Well, we tested them to make sure they were keeping up with the standard." It's just a way to pass the blame.

    And anyhow, when I was in high school all the classes that had some stupid standardized test were ruined. We had to test to some arbitrary standard. My English class had some essay test that required you to write essays in a very specific formula. If you went outside of it, you failed the exam. If I wrote an essay with that formula in college, my professors would give me a big F. That's a year in English wasted when we could've either learned how to write a proper essay or done something cool.

    Others have said this, but I'd like to reiterate. When my kid is failing in class, I'm not going to say "Damn you American public school system." I'm going to talk to my kid and find out why they are failing. From my experience, it would probably be my own kid's fault.

    Any assertion that the government is intentionally making anyone dumber is just absurd. Those in office are trying to respond to nagging parents who do not realize the blame lies with them, mainly. Considering that almost everyone in college I talk to seems to have some private war with their parents, and stares at me blankly when I praise my parents, I'm going to assume that a lot of parents just suck.
    Last edited by dark_glaive; Apr 12, 2005 at 10:58 PM.
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  2. #26
    Materials Master KnightofNi may be famous one day KnightofNi may be famous one day KnightofNi's Avatar
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    Arrianna, Standardized Testing maybe when you went to highschool was good, but right now, standardize testing is alot of the reasons why schools are doing poorly. This applies only to Florida I cannot speak about the rest of the nation. Florida schools take a test known as the FCAT, a standardize test that has turned into a way for the governement to control the school system with an iron fist. The results of this test not only determine how much funding a school gets, but also how much of a reputation the school has with the community and new parents who are moving here. The financial problem comes from the fact that if a school does poorly, the state lowers and shifts the schools budget for the year to be used on educational programs, while giving more money to it in order to make "FCAT" classes so that students can pass. This shift in budget causes alol of problems since the money taken away cannot be used to help the school and the money given to the school can only be used for the FCAT classes. Basically they rob a school of money and at the same time increase their funding just for FCAT. This affects teachers in that, if a school fails 2 or more times, the state can "clean house" basically fire all principals, teachers, and administrators who the state feels caused the loss in academic scores. Also, the state shifts teaches from good schools to bad schools while taking bad teachers and putting them into good schools. Basically, they are switching teachers around and putting the good in bad schools and the bad in good schools. The reputation of the school is also affected by this one test. An example would be Evan's Highschool in Orange County. They failed twice and this caused an uproar. The state cleaned house with the admins and also fired teachers for not performing on this test. Also, this causes racial tensions considering the fact that Evan's is almost 99 percent Black. This blows open the door for advocates of the black community to attack the state even though the numbers point to a direct correlation between the scores and the racial percentage in the school.

    Sorry that was so long, but I feel very strongly about how bullshit standardized tesing is, if you would like, I could send you(if I can find it) my thesis for my college english class on the FCAT if that would help Arrianna. My basic point is that though standardized testing is a good idea in general, in today's educational society, this type of testing has hijacked the education system in which everything in the education system is based on the performance of these scores. Also thse tests because they are standardized, don't differientiate between kids with ADD and the normal kids, so they don't take into account the difference is skill level whether its the child's fault or not.

    A personal example of the bullshit that is No Child Left Behind is that my dad's school which he works as a teacher for scored the highest on the FCAT in the state for middle schools, but failed No Child Left Behind becaue of three disabled students.

    Rant over about the mockery that is our education system today.

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  3. #27
    Lady Barronmore Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnightofNi
    This shift in budget causes alol of problems since the money taken away cannot be used to help the school and the money given to the school can only be used for the FCAT classes. Basically they rob a school of money and at the same time increase their funding just for FCAT. This affects teachers in that, if a school fails 2 or more times, the state can "clean house" basically fire all principals, teachers, and administrators who the state feels caused the loss in academic scores.
    I guess the difference is that I don't have a problem with that.

    I'm more interested in results then jobs or funding. Personally I think it's ridiculous that the US spends more on public education then other countries and gets some of the worst results. If a standerdized test forces teachers to actually teach or get fired I'm all for it.

    I would love to read your paper however.

    Quote Originally Posted by dark_glaive
    And anyhow, when I was in high school all the classes that had some stupid standardized test were ruined. We had to test to some arbitrary standard. My English class had some essay test that required you to write essays in a very specific formula. If you went outside of it, you failed the exam. If I wrote an essay with that formula in college, my professors would give me a big F.
    Can I suggest you get used to it. Every college proffessor has their own arbitrary standards that they use. No two are the same and if you don't give them what you want you will still end up with a "big F". For example my husband had to write over 6 "final essays" to get his Bachalors. Each teacher had their own standards and requirments. In college that's just life.

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  4. #28
    Otaku Animewolf267 may be famous one day Animewolf267 may be famous one day Animewolf267's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna
    *sigh* You know I hate it when someone responds to me without reading what I wrote already. If I may quote myself?

    Feel free to go back and read the rest of the post.

    Just to check your theory however I went to the US Department of Labors report on Unemployment. According to them there were 8,149 unemployed over the age of 16 in 2004. Of those: 1,346 were Management, professional, and related occupations; 1,617 were Service occupations; 1,937 were Sales and office occupations; 1,140 were Natural resources, construction, and maintenance; 1,393 were Production, transportation, and material moving occupations; and 686 had No previous work experience.

    Since the majority of the occupations of those unemployed require at the least certification if not at least one degree I would consider your theory to be incorrect. The majority of unemployed are not High School drop outs and giving them a fake High School diploma is unlikely to change the situtation. In fact as I said in my previous posts they acctually make the situation worse and are likely to increase unemployment not decrease it. The Federal government is aware of this, even if State governments tend to ignore it, and as such do their best to support those seeking college degree's at the same time as they are trying to crack down on falsified Public School results. More degree's, more income, more taxes.

    There is also one last fact you seem to be unaware of and that is that you do not need a High School diploma to go to college. Most 2 year colleges have "aptitude" tests they will give students entering without another test score (such as the SAT's) that enable them to place students as to their curiculum. The government will also fund the education of someone without a High School diploma in terms of grants and loans. All someone has to want to do is go, and they can.
    O.k. you kno i really dont care about the schools wut i care about is that the government is attempting to hide things from the people. Which was the original point of the thread. I really didnt give a D**M about the schools.
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  5. #29
    Lady Barronmore Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Animewolf267
    O.k. you kno i really dont care about the schools wut i care about is that the government is attempting to hide things from the people. Which was the original point of the thread. I really didnt give a D**M about the schools.
    So in other words you only want opinions and not facts?

    Sorry, no can do. If you want to throw opinion at me about why the grade requirements are being changed that's your choice, but I will counter it with the facts whether you like it or not. You cannot have a discussion about school grades and leave schools out of it. Just as you cannot talk about them wanting more kids in college and then leave college out of it.

    As I said a long time ago, you have an interesting theory, problem is it is wrong. If you want to know why read my and others posts. If you just want to stick to your opinion and ignore the truth go for it. Your choice.

    Just remember, you're are talking to someone who had to deal for 13 years, spent numerous years in college, has family "in the system", and am looking at dealing with the system for another who knows how many years with my children. I am well educated on the subject and have had 20+ years of experience to draw upon.

    Things like this are also the reason my children will never see public schools if I can help it. You see, I want them to get an education.

    Something to think about.
    Last edited by Arrianna; Apr 14, 2005 at 07:04 PM.

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  6. #30
    Otaku ryke12 may be famous one day ryke12 may be famous one day
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna
    So in other words you only want opinions and not facts?

    Sorry, no can do. If you want to throw opinion at me about why the grade requirements are being changed that's your choice, but I will counter it with the facts whether you like it or not. You cannot have a discussion about school grades and leave schools out of it. Just as you cannot talk about them wanting more kids in college and then leave college out of it.

    As I said a long time ago, you have an interesting theory, problem is it is wrong. If you want to know why read my and others posts. If you just want to stick to your opinion and ignore the truth go for it. Your choice.

    Just remember, you're are talking to someone who had to deal for 13 years, spent numerous years in college, has family "in the system", and am looking at dealing with the system for another who knows how many years with my children. I am well educated on the subject and have had 20+ years of experience to draw upon.

    Crap like this is also the reason my children will never see public schools if I can help it. You see, I want them to get an education.

    Something to think about.
    This is an interesting little "war" we have going on here... (don't mean to insult anyone like that).

    Just thought I should backup Arrianna's argument (I think... this thread is getting so long-winded it's a pain to keep everything straight). Standardized testing does NOT help. It's very culture based. For example, and this IS a real-life example (I had a good teacher who told us stuff like this): One child was raised in a strictly Jewish (I think) society. Everyone was Jewish, from neighbors to parents. Then he went to a public school. One of the questions showed a wreath and asked what it was. Naturally, the boy (who had no Christian experience whatsoever) missed the question horribly.

    Public schools aren't all they want to be, naturally. Tests are getting worse, mainly because of incredible amounts of leeway. People (mainly teachers) are now not allowed the same amount of control over their classes that they had years ago. This whole "suing teachers" thing is getting out of hand.

    Oh, yeah. Like I said in an earlier thread, Private schools aren't much better. They give you ridiculous education compared to public schools, BUT you have no real-world experience. Trust me on this, because I have several friends who went to private schools for many years. They come into public schools with no common sense (no offense), and not that great of a "social" ability. IMHO, from what I've experienced, private schools tend to extract your natural tendencies, and blow them to extravagent proportions. All of my private school friends are either obscenely introverted, or extroverted.

    Now onto jobless (man, this is a long post). First, I wonder if you count homeless, because that's what I'm referring to here. If not, then feel free to ignore this advice. Studies HAVE SHOWN that most homeless (and thus jobless) people have mental problems. The most common being schizophrenia (by far).

    And about the Government flooding the job market, that is not true and you know it. If it WAS true, there would be a huge uprising because the already semi-delicate job market would become impossible to find a job in. What with illegal immigrants (face the facts, people, they take up the jobs the "proud" Americans don't want), and underpaid minors working overtime, the jobs are scarce as-is.
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  7. #31
    Lady Barronmore Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryke12
    This is an interesting little "war" we have going on here... (don't mean to insult anyone like that).

    Just thought I should backup Arrianna's argument (I think... this thread is getting so long-winded it's a pain to keep everything straight). Standardized testing does NOT help.
    lol, actually that is KnightofNi and dark_glaive. I'm all for Standardized testing, but then I'm very result oriented (if you hadn't guessed that already). If the test has flaws, fix them.

    To be completely honest however I hated Standardized testing when I was in Public School. That started to change however when I got to college and discovered just how little I knew. The sad part about that is that I scored average to high in the aptitude test. I was "average to high"! Personally I felt that to be a very large condemnation since most of what I had learned I taught myself. So now I'm all for Standardized testing.

    Maybe when you have kids you will be too. lol

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  8. #32
    Otaku dark_glaive may be famous one day dark_glaive may be famous one day
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna
    Can I suggest you get used to it. Every college proffessor has their own arbitrary standards that they use. No two are the same and if you don't give them what you want you will still end up with a "big F". For example my husband had to write over 6 "final essays" to get his Bachalors. Each teacher had their own standards and requirments. In college that's just life.
    I'd like for you to reread my post. Do you see anywhere in it complaints about college and/or professors? I'll try to get used to college professors....oh wait. I wasn't dissatisfied with them in the first place!!

    Well, if you think that every essay should be divided into three neat paragraphs, that each have a neat little topic sentence, and each paragraph should have three sentences that each make a point is any way you would ever write a paper, have at it. You made it sound like I was complaining about college papers, and I'm not sure where you got that from at all. I actually tend to enjoy writing research papers since I usually get to pick the topic.

    Teaching someone a formulaic way of writing is stupid because of what you said. Different standards. You are teaching for a test, not teaching so that students can get useful knowledge. The way they taught us to write an essay would never be used for anything but that test. THAT was my point, not griping about professors and papers.

    And for the record, I've written four research papers for four different professors in exactly the same way and got a good grade every time. Professors aren't as arbitrary as you make them sound.
    Last edited by dark_glaive; Apr 15, 2005 at 09:54 AM.
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