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Thread: Is the U.S. gov. trying to make us dumber?

  1. #33
    Lady Barronmore Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dark_glaive
    I'd like for you to reread my post. Do you see anywhere in it complaints about college and/or professors? I'll try to get used to college professors....oh wait. I wasn't dissatisfied with them in the first place!!
    No, you sounded dissatisfied with having to learn a formula that would not be acceptable in your college classes. My point was that formula's vary from class to class and professor to professor no matter where you go, especially in advanced college courses.

    Quote Originally Posted by dark_glaive
    Well, if you think that every essay should be divided into three neat paragraphs, that each have a neat little topic sentence, and each paragraph should have three sentences that each make a point is any way you would ever write a paper, have at it. You made it sound like I was complaining about college papers, and I'm not sure where you got that from at all. I actually tend to enjoy writing research papers since I usually get to pick the topic.
    Actually the "formula" you are complaining about is considered preperatory to learning advanced essay formats. It is also considered a way of testing to see how well you follow directions.

    Quote Originally Posted by dark_glaive
    Teaching someone a formulaic way of writing is stupid because of what you said. Different standards. You are teaching for a test, not teaching so that students can get useful knowledge. The way they taught us to write an essay would never be used for anything but that test. THAT was my point, not griping about professors and papers.
    Annoying yes, stupid no. Learning to give your "boss" what they want instead of what you want is generally considered good training for the rest of your life. Either your college English professors aren't very picky or you just haven't taken an essay heavy course yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by dark_glaive
    And for the record, I've written four research papers for four different professors in exactly the same way and got a good grade every time. Professors aren't as arbitrary as you make them sound.
    I'm going to assume that the essays weren't for a class on writing. If I'm wrong, well... see above.


    I personally never had to be anal about my essays in college either until I got to advanced English. Oh boy... if you think one little formula is a problem wait untill you have to write a 15 page essay in a very specific formate on one of 5 (or less) subjects using specific, approved, resources.

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  2. #34
    Otaku dark_glaive may be famous one day dark_glaive may be famous one day
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    I was under the impression that schools were supposed to give us knowledge that would prove useful in college at some level, at the very least. Not teach us to obey orders and give some boss what they want. I doubt most of the stuff one learns in latter years of high school would prove useful if you didn't go to college after graduating. One would think a "writing test" would test how well you actually wrote, not adherence to some forumla. You may argue that statement is too subjective to use as a grading benchmark. I would argue that it is a reason why something subjective like writing shouldn't appear on a standardized test. At least if a teacher gives you a bad grade, you can go to them and get a personal response on why you got the grade. With these writing tests you are at the complete mercy of the state graders and can never know exactly why they gave you what grade they did. Sure, there are unreasonable teachers out there, but I'd say the majority are reasonable enough to at least give you a reason you got a bad grade.

    I wouldn't know about high level english classes as all my history professors care about is documented thorough research and logical arguments written in some sort of organized structure in a way where you don't sound like an idiot. That seems pretty flexible to me. If high level English classes are like that, I'm glad I would never take them. Sounds like more mechanization of what should be a fluid art.

    I'm sure I sound like some idealistic kid to you, but I guess I was always lied to and told that school was supposed to teach you how to think, not just run you through a machine, make sure you pass a certain mark, then spit you out.

    Ok, to get off the writing test soapbox, my math and science classes had standardized tests as well. We didn't teach to the test, but the tests were incredibly curved to the point where you had to almost try to fail the test. I mentioned in an earlier post, this point, but I wanted to get away from the writing test and show a different example.
    Last edited by dark_glaive; Apr 15, 2005 at 03:25 PM.
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  3. #35
    Otaku ryke12 may be famous one day ryke12 may be famous one day
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    Quote Originally Posted by dark_glaive
    I was under the impression that schools were supposed to give us knowledge that would prove useful in college at some level, at the very least. Not teach us to obey orders and give some boss what they want. I doubt most of the stuff one learns in latter years of high school would prove useful if you didn't go to college after graduating. One would think a "writing test" would test how well you actually wrote, not adherence to some forumla. You may argue that statement is too subjective to use as a grading benchmark. I would argue that it is a reason why something subjective like writing shouldn't appear on a standardized test. At least if a teacher gives you a bad grade, you can go to them and get a personal response on why you got the grade. With these writing tests you are at the complete mercy of the state graders and can never know exactly why they gave you what grade they did. Sure, there are unreasonable teachers out there, but I'd say the majority are reasonable enough to at least give you a reason you got a bad grade.

    I wouldn't know about high level english classes as all my history professors care about is documented thorough research and logical arguments written in some sort of organized structure in a way where you don't sound like an idiot. That seems pretty flexible to me. If high level English classes are like that, I'm glad I would never take them. Sounds like more mechanization of what should be a fluid art.

    I'm sure I sound like some idealistic kid to you, but I guess I was always lied to and told that school was supposed to teach you how to think, not just run you through a machine, make sure you pass a certain mark, then spit you out.

    Ok, to get off the writing test soapbox, my math and science classes had standardized tests as well. We didn't teach to the test, but the tests were incredibly curved to the point where you had to almost try to fail the test. I mentioned in an earlier post, this point, but I wanted to get away from the writing test and show a different example.
    Wow... your logic is all OVER the place. Look, practically EVERYTHING in school is meant to have you follow directions. Think on it for a second. And also, the schools aren't preparing a VERY tiny percentage of you who MIGHT become bosses. There's a VAST majority of employees. The whole point of school follows a very humanist ideal, that of showing students EVERYTHING.

    And about your little "rant" about writing tests... so, if writing tests are subjective, even though they are graded by many people, most of which are considered the top of their respective fields, then writing classes should be obsolete, right?

    I take it you're not familiar with EITHER MLA OR APA style, right? Most Lit teachers tend to base their requirements for reports on those... Have fun at college, because some of the Professors are so incredibly biased, it's not even funny. One of my friends FAILED a class because the teacher was pro-something, and my friend wrote a very anti-something paper. It wasn't even a bad paper. All of the arguments were supported reasonably, and was written in the style the teacher requested.

    You complain about how writing tests are subjective, but then complain about how they should be graded on how "good" your writing is. What's more subjective? Did he follow the guidelines? Or did he WRITE GOOD?

    But then onto your next statement, where you basically RETRACT your previous statement. I guess you must be an all-or-nothing kind of person, because partial credit for certain things is a VERY subjective thing. Ever complained to a teacher that he/she should've given you blah points because you did so-and-so, and just didn't fully do so-and-so? That's SUBJECTIVE.

    Now, after you got off your "soapbox", then you started talking about standardized tests for Math and Science, and how you got a curve on them. This made me realize we're probably NOT talking about the same kind of standardized test. I'm referring to state- or country- given. Y'know, I could've SWORN you were referring to something like an SAT in the first few paragraphs, what with your comments about how you could at least approach a teacher, rather than some nameless grader. :Thumbd:

    Oh, yeah. Your entire post just confuses me. You complain, then praise subjective grading, alternately. You hate how english makes you follow a style, THEN say it should be a "fluid art".

    Just check over your logic before you post, a'ight?
    Maybe I'll come up eith a sig soon... until then, be patient.

  4. #36
    Materials Master KnightofNi may be famous one day KnightofNi may be famous one day KnightofNi's Avatar
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    The reason why in state-funded schooling they teach a standardized style of writing a paper, three paragraphs, topic sentence etc. etc. Is because it is easier for the children to understand and also to develop a foundation of writing since the child will up to this point have not written a paper before. However, as you get into the upper levels of education teachers are wishing now that you break your habit and start trying to develop new ways of writing papers. Also, the MLA and APA styles are now the accepted standards for writing and formating and citing papers, just as much in college as in highschool.

    Well highschool does teach you how to do well in college, it teaches you to FOLLOW DIRECTIONS AND LISTEN. College is nothing more than how many hoops can you jump through to get your degree. Each professor is different and has different standards, but the same fact remains that you must pass this class, appease this professor and show the school that you can put up with whatever it throws at you in order for you to get a degree.

    this post may be a bit off the point but dark_glaves thoughts seem to be everywhere. Also, all my point was that I hate standardized tests because the respective state and the national government are making these tests their benchmark in determining so many aspects of education: Money to schools, reputation, even racial makeup of a school. Not only being a product of this horrible system but also having a father who was teaching before alot of the people here on AO were even born I believe has given me this attitude, my father is the real person to talk to about education, mainly because he has seen the education system change and degrade itself into the shambles that it is now.
    Last edited by KnightofNi; Apr 19, 2005 at 12:18 PM.

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