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Thread: Abortion. What are your takes on it?

  1. #17
    Commander Ham Chiefblackhammer is making a name for themselves Chiefblackhammer is making a name for themselves Chiefblackhammer is making a name for themselves Chiefblackhammer's Avatar
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    Re: Abortion. What are your takes on it?

    What is murder? If not the taking of another's life? All forms of extinguishing another's life is murder whether you choose to believe it as such or not. Doesn't change the fact it is murder. The right or wrong can only stem from when it is acceptable to take another's life...at least in the views of the society.

    So argue me the point at which one is considered alive? At what point do you consider the child a living being? Not until birth? Or when the life gains a heart beat? When there is brain activity? When is it a life? Are we not pronounced "dead" when there is no more heart beat? SO then wouldn't a un-born child be "alive" if it has a heart beat?

    And for the record it doesn't matter if you call it a fetus or a child, fetus is a latin derivative for offspring a.k.a. "child" which means the term is interchangeable or in other words they mean the same thing. Also just to clarify it is a term applied to the "child" from 8 weeks into the pregnancy on...notable that the heart IS beating at time of classification to the term fetus.

    But why can a woman decide to destroy the life within her and that be acceptable and definitely "not murder" because it is "her" body when if at the same time I were to punch her in the stomach and her lose the child...why is that considered (and I would be tried for murder) as murder?

    It really isn't "her" body that is being destroyed now is it? Sure her body helped produce the child and will help to sustain and grow the child but it is not "her" body, it is a separate living being "attached" to the uterus of her body. Which is why the argument that it is a woman's body and her choice really doesn't make sense. I mean, in most cases it was her choice to have intercourse which produced the baby (sure I understand rape but get real, if you studied the number of women who got abortions...very very few were because of rape)...so how does being irresponsible in intercourse make them responsible enough to determine the fate of another...that happens to live inside of them?

    To me the answer is the same as in any other case. Murder, and it is murder to end another's life, is only acceptable when you do it to prevent the direct threat on your life. Not minute threat....the if we don't do this you will die threat. No other reason works for me. Not even rape.

    Gasp!? Not even rape Hammer!? Well think about it, if a woman was being raped and she killed the guy...she will still be tried for murder in most states. Rape isn't justification for murder by law and why would that be different allowing her to be able to murder the un-born child inside her just because she was raped? I mean if you can't kill the assailant who had a choice why should you be able to kill the child who had no choice?

    But what if the child had a high probability of being born "defective" ... seriously go work with the Special Olympics...all of them deserve what we take for granted yet are happier, more fulfilled than we are...and they go without our "perfectness".

    Also I would be more upset that my tax dollars went to octo-mom than a orphanage. Eitherway I would STILL much rather my dollars when to keep a child alive than all the other things the government does to waste our tax dollars.

    One more thing, @ Tula....You really think a child will grow up delinquent just because they went to an orphanage or through adoption and that is grounds for killing them before they have a chance to prove different....SERIOUSLY? I say the people who produced the child and can't "keep up with them" deserve much more to forfeit their lives than the child be stripped of their chance to ever be. Chances are they are the "delinquents" who need killing...which would save society even more $$$ in the long run too as they are probably lazy no job working tax dollar stealing ingrates no? Assumptions and all.


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    Re: Abortion. What are your takes on it?

    Very valid points made Chief. Some of the most poignant. But there is a personal gray area. Someone I know is pregnant. They are a waste and a drain on society. We really should not have some people breed. If they were to get an abortion then wouldn't it be a good thing even if you are against abortion.

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    Re: Abortion. What are your takes on it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefblackhammer View Post
    What is murder? If not the taking of another's life? All forms of extinguishing another's life is murder whether you choose to believe it as such or not. Doesn't change the fact it is murder. The right or wrong can only stem from when it is acceptable to take another's life...at least in the views of the society.

    So argue me the point at which one is considered alive? At what point do you consider the child a living being? Not until birth? Or when the life gains a heart beat? When there is brain activity? When is it a life? Are we not pronounced "dead" when there is no more heart beat? SO then wouldn't a un-born child be "alive" if it has a heart beat?

    And for the record it doesn't matter if you call it a fetus or a child, fetus is a latin derivative for offspring a.k.a. "child" which means the term is interchangeable or in other words they mean the same thing. Also just to clarify it is a term applied to the "child" from 8 weeks into the pregnancy on...notable that the heart IS beating at time of classification to the term fetus.

    But why can a woman decide to destroy the life within her and that be acceptable and definitely "not murder" because it is "her" body when if at the same time I were to punch her in the stomach and her lose the child...why is that considered (and I would be tried for murder) as murder?

    It really isn't "her" body that is being destroyed now is it? Sure her body helped produce the child and will help to sustain and grow the child but it is not "her" body, it is a separate living being "attached" to the uterus of her body. Which is why the argument that it is a woman's body and her choice really doesn't make sense. I mean, in most cases it was her choice to have intercourse which produced the baby (sure I understand rape but get real, if you studied the number of women who got abortions...very very few were because of rape)...so how does being irresponsible in intercourse make them responsible enough to determine the fate of another...that happens to live inside of them?

    To me the answer is the same as in any other case. Murder, and it is murder to end another's life, is only acceptable when you do it to prevent the direct threat on your life. Not minute threat....the if we don't do this you will die threat. No other reason works for me. Not even rape.

    Gasp!? Not even rape Hammer!? Well think about it, if a woman was being raped and she killed the guy...she will still be tried for murder in most states. Rape isn't justification for murder by law and why would that be different allowing her to be able to murder the un-born child inside her just because she was raped? I mean if you can't kill the assailant who had a choice why should you be able to kill the child who had no choice?

    But what if the child had a high probability of being born "defective" ... seriously go work with the Special Olympics...all of them deserve what we take for granted yet are happier, more fulfilled than we are...and they go without our "perfectness".

    Also I would be more upset that my tax dollars went to octo-mom than a orphanage. Eitherway I would STILL much rather my dollars when to keep a child alive than all the other things the government does to waste our tax dollars.
    1 + 1 = 2
    1 gamete + 1 gamete = 1 living being
    I interpret any unborn child, regardless of stage to be alive. But I know that not many people cannot visualize that something smaller than their hand for any length of time and has limited human features as a living thing and possibly for whatever reason would want to get rid of it. As this mode of thinking and or action will not affect me most of the time, you can do whatever the heck you want to your body and or baby.
    And regardless of what you or I think about abortion, children are perhaps the one thing a parent actually has a right to. In the Consitution people are granted the right to property they are born with. If the only property you actually are born with is your own body, and you just so happen to get pregnant well . . . technically it's invading your property. You can choose to get rid of it (abortion) or carry it to term (and still get rid of it).
    PS: if you punched a pregnant woman in the stomach, and she lost her child, it is only in some states that they would try you for murder.Or in some cases if a lawyer can prove that the unborn child didn't qualify as a living thing, you'd probably get off but be hated by almost everyone in the country.

    On the issue of wrongfile life and defective children, not all children with defects can partake in special olympics. While there does exist individuals that are born with defects that can be functional, there's still a percentage (whatever it is) of individuals that can not function like the average joe person. Kids that have CP (Cerebral Palsy) and can't control their reflexes would have a difficult time competing in the special olympics I'd imagine.
    Severely disabled children due to complications from rubella can be as extremee but not limited to: blindness, deafness, and mental retardation. In almost all cases, a child will exhbit a bare minimum of all three symptoms none of which are reversible or curable. The child would need a round the clock care. Somehow I doubt a child born with these disabilities will be competing in the special olympics anytime soon. (The more severe of the symptoms being death shortly after birth or a severely diminished life span.)
    Somehow I think any parent, regardless of whether or they wanted a child, would want to give birth to a child that would NEVER be able to really experience life or would be in any amount of pain due to their defects.

    I'm not really sure if I'd rather my money go to octo-mom or an orphanage. Octo-mom is a whack job that should probably get married to a really nice guy and let him just adopt her children. On the other hand. . . orphanages in the US don't exist. Foster homes on the other hand do. And I assure you foster homes, foster care, and foster families are no walk in the park. I'm not really sure which is the lesser of two evils. But I do know I do mind my tax money going to foster care facilities. And I know I do mind that some of it goes to organizations that provide food stamps and whatever (something octo-mom will be in definite need of).


    One more thing, @ Tula....You really think a child will grow up delinquent just because they went to an orphanage or through adoption and that is grounds for killing them before they have a chance to prove different....SERIOUSLY? I say the people who produced the child and can't "keep up with them" deserve much more to forfeit their lives than the child be stripped of their chance to ever be. Chances are they are the "delinquents" who need killing...which would save society even more $$$ in the long run too as they are probably lazy no job working tax dollar stealing ingrates no? Assumptions and all.
    I was adopted. More than once.
    Just trust me when I say abortion is far more human almost 85% of the time.
    Some of the kids in foster homes and programs similar are not released into the public.
    And on top of that, do you know how many completely screwed up individuals there are in the world that hide behind smiling faces and a marriage (certificate) just so they can get their hands on a child that isn't biologically theirs so it's ok to really scare the hell out of them or seriously scar them for life?
    I am sorry. Abortion is so much more humane than foster care. Or are you going to argue cruel and unusual punishment too?
    And yeah I know not all people in the foster care system are delinquent. But I also know that either in a foster home or foster care, people are real animals.

    You can't say abortion is murder but then also say that people who put their children up for adoption usually are the ones that need to be killed. Unless of course you think homicide is sometimes justified.

  5. #20
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    Re: Abortion. What are your takes on it?

    I'm pro-choice, but I'm also pro-making-good-choices. If you're going to fool around you have to be willing to take up the responsibility of having a child should the pill or condom fall through. I don't see abortion as a real option in any normal circumstances, like aceman I don't think financial burden is a valid excuse at all. I think in certain circumstances like rape we shouldn't bar a woman from making the choice of having an abortion just because some other sleazy bitch misused the option for less noble reasons.

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  7. #21
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    Re: Abortion. What are your takes on it?

    Honestly, in some cases of extreme abuse, it would have been better off if the child died before dying of suffering later.
    Which why I believe abortion can be in the best interest of the nation and overpopulation.

    And honestly, I know about financial hardship. My family has been absolutely homeless more then once. I've been in a homeless shelter.

    It's not just "oh, I'm poor. I'll get a job and I'll have money!".
    No. Depending on which state you live in it is hell if you are in poverty and with Social Services is basically set up so you are always going to be poor.

    Don't believe me? My mom had three jobs, and was going to college while taking care of two little kids. So she decided to file for government help because even with all of that she was denied financial aid and we couldn't even buy food and I was living off of cheap Ramen for a weeks on end.
    Because she tried to go to college to get out our shitty situation the government said that she didn't apply for food stamps, cash aid, or medical care.

    We sold everything, and was literally left with nothing, and in the end my grandad had to help pay for everything because my Dad was long gone and is wanted for murder.
    The only reason I'm out of that situation now is that my mom finished up college, and my grandad help get us on our feet.


    Sometimes if people don't have financial help, they DON'T have it. And working as much as possible can't help if you have children. Blame the way Social Services is, and how the people that work there act.
    And if someone literally can't feed a child, and has no one out there that can help them, then is a starving child that's a burden and cost to the government really something we should keep producing in our economy?

    2. If someone is abused, there is always psychological defects later of some sort. Abusers create abusers, so to say. If someone is abused there is a psychological cycle that makes them continue to be abused. Passing that on over and over is hurting the country in so many ways.
    Extreme sexual abuse and genetics can later turn a child already showing destructive signs from OPP(Oppositional Defiance Disorder) or Conduct Disorder into a full blown Sociopath at age 18. To which there is no cure except death.
    Other abuse victims sometimes find alcohol, drugs and violence as their way to cope.
    Seeing people who where abused later die from this is much sadder to me then a fetus being killed because the mother didn't want that life for their child.

    3. I'm not a huge abortion supporter, but I feel there are points on both sides that should be addressed equally. If a mother is responsible for her child until they are 18, and is supposed to decide their best interest, what if death is better then the hell they might through later in life?

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    Re: Abortion. What are your takes on it?

    Personally, I don't care what happened to the mother; I think that the only thing that matters is the baby. For example, if you knew the baby would live a miserable life(because of birth defects and other complications) I think that it would be perfectly reasonable to abort it. Also, if the mother is unable to support the child, abortion could be a better option than adoption.

  9. #23
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    Re: Abortion. What are your takes on it?

    I say to each their own.

    It's not up to us to say who's right or who's wrong when it's not us dealing with it. If it were me in that person's shoes, I couldn't say--I'm not a woman. But I do believe that it's that woman's decision to do whatever she wants with her body and/or what may be inside of it.

    I always see these pro-life signs in front of houses in the suburbs (here in Minnesota) that say things like, "I have fingerprints at 10 weeks of conception," or "My heart begins beating at 6 weeks." Y'know, things like that and it really bothers me because I don't believe that people should be guilt tripped in to doing--or in this case, not doing--things they really did/didn't wanna do in the first place. A lot people I talk to say the feel guilty afterward anyway, so why would anyone wanna be guilted in to doin' anything otherwise?

    It's not up to us or anyone else to say what someone should do with their own body. We don't tell people it's bad to put kids up for adoption, but when someone feels their not ready for a kid, or was raped, or simply doesn't ever want kids; they get pointed at and called "baby-killer". GTF outta here!!


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    Im A Welfare Mom Who Had An Abortion!

    Quote Originally Posted by aceman67 View Post

    You don't have the Finances: Get a job. End of story. Finances is not an excuse to end a life.

    I have had many things in life. Including 2 children, one abortion, a congenital hip deformity, ADD, a Mathematics disability, a TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury) and Asthma. A Job isn't high up on that list, my work history includes short term jobs that were less than part time. Jobs I still managed to be terminated form for reasons like tardiness, and not keeping pace.

    I am on welfare, and even have a pending Social Security (disability) case.


    It might be fair to say I take advantage of resources available to me. But if you were me, you'd do the same. I am not unintelligent or "retarded". In fact I am not without my strengths. I just march to the beat of a different drummer. Functioning normally is an issue currently, but I am actively working on it. I do plan on going back to school and eventually maintaining a career that emphasizes on my strengths.

    I got pregnant for the first time at 18 years old. I was attending college. I had just found out my parents were divorcing. My dad said now that I was 18 his job was done. I thought I was in love. But I was still using protection for the most part. However, in throws of passion I did occasionally "slip up". Regular birth control gave me bad reactions... so I would take the morning after pill. The one time I failed to do so, it happened. I dropped out of college, but decided to keep "the little life inside of me". I applied for welfare, and have been on it since.

    I got into another relationship at 20... This time I was sure he was the man I was going to marry. He and I, my son, and a female roommate, all lived together in the upstairs of a 3 bedroom duplex. I turned 21, he lost his job, we lost our place... I moved in with my dad, and found out I was pregnant. My father told me he wouldn't house me pregnant... I already had a kid I struggled to care for. So... I opted to keep "The little life inside me" and went to a homeless shelter. Shortly there after,my realtionship with my future husband (or so I thought) ended. He hooked up with the female roommate previously mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd View Post
    Sure anyone can get a job with the right attitudes and ambitions but some people are too lazy, welfare has this way of hypnotizing one. Who wouldn't want free money for no work, just pop out a kid every five years or so.
    In Minnesota, you get cash assistance (welfare) for however many children you have when you applied. In my case, I applied during my first pregnancy. This means I get welfare for one child... no matter if I have 12. Welfare in my state doesn't pay moms to be baby factories.

    That last relationship was tough for me, and I never really moved on, even though he did... he eventually ended up single again and he obviousy was an interest of mine..\ He was the only man I have been intimate with in almost 6 years. While he was with her, I abstained. But we did eventually become intimate again. He wasn't interested in a relationship I guess. And I had been taking care of his child (my second child) in large part... alone. He had been giving me child support. Either way, we weren't being careful, and I got pregnant again. Now, Im a single mother of 2... in some sort of weird sexual thing with a man I love, but who doesn't want to commit. He doesn't want another child, not by me, and not at this point in time. If I have a child I am literally stealing from the children I have, to feed it. AND I had also just got surgery, where I put myself at higher risk of defeating the purpose of said surgery if I carry a child to term this close post op.

    My kids would never understand me giving up their little brother or sister for adoption. I don't think I could give away a baby I have carried to term anyway.

    So, at 5 weeks gestation, I had an abortion. This happened mere months ago.

    What it boiled down to, was putting the lives of the little ones who were OUTSIDE of me, before that of a "life" that wasn't here.

    I would discourage you all from throwing stones... you can never understand what its like to be someone unless you are in their shoes.
    ... Not Ever Again...

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