Arrianna

Sounds like an absurd statement? Think about it for a second.


In all of history there is one common thread. When a country becomes to weak to support and defend itself it falls to another country that is prepared to make use of it's resources and in the process restores order; wars that last for a few years resulting in a victor and a new citizenship. Think of it as mans version of natural selection. We need strong governments to thrive, weak governments can't defend themselves from both internal and external pressures, the strong government takes over; Imperialism.

So now we have today. A time in which Imperialism of all kinds is essentially forbidden. Borders have been set and cannot be changed without the permission of other countries. So what happens when a country becomes so weak it can no longer rule itself? They are sealed in their borders to "work things out for themselves", ie. kill each other, until someone walks out over the hill of bodies victorious. These internal wars last not for years but decades. In the meantime other stronger countries which in the past could have just walked in and imposed order are relegated to secretly funding (or not so secretly if you are the UN) money and arms (with which they kill more people) to whatever side they want to win.

So I ask you, is anti-Imperialism really the solution we all seem to think it is or has it just created more war & suffering in countries like, say... Rwanda, Darfur, etc, et?

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Shodokan

You make a good point but this goes over the head of most users of the site. And the ones who usually debate stuff like this don't post as often for some reason.

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Hassun

What you're saying is basically 'survival of the fittest'.
I didn't know you were a Darwin fan Arrianna.


And it seems like it also goes over your head shodokan, since you don't seem to be able to add any sort of opinion or comment on the subject at hand.

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Luminous

An interesting topic I think, and I'm not sure there's a definitive answer. Imperialism certainly causes more war and suffering than the current alternatives I think. I don't think anyone wants a situation where a larger nation can bully a smaller one around, and sort of impose its will that way. On the other hand, as has been said, these civil wars that result from anti-imperialism can last for years without conclusion. And perhaps the people in that country don't want outside help, which could be another potential problem I think.

Relating back to imperialism, I think there are issues going both ways, but I think anti-imperialism is more preferable. You're probably going to have conflicts either way, but the wars I think are on a far smaller scale when the stronger governments aren't intervening.(Captain Obvious has arrived!)

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Arrianna

Hey, Darwin had some good concepts working for him. It isn't his fault they were co-opted for political purposes. As far as I am concerned if a government is to weak to defend the rights of it's citizens it deserves to fall.

Yet the strongest Imperial governments all had one thing in common, an interest in the welfare of it citizens with anyone willing to play by the rules able to be an equal citizen. Alexander the Great, The Roman Empire, etc. The last Imperial government we had in our history didn't do that (*cough* England) and they were toppled from inside not outside.

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P.R. Princess

Well first off i dont see a problem with imperialism. I would rather have a country fighting for say 2 years than for 20. And if the time comes for a new leader or government to come into place then go ahead.
Of course if the UN had stepped in sooner for the war in Darfur and Rwanda i honestly believe that they wouldn't be having the war.

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Aleister Sithis

Ehh, I actually see Imperialism helpful, I mean if a country is too weak to rule itself and is falling apart, that stronger Country is doing it a favor by giving it a government, order, etc. But like Hassun said "Survival of the fittest" and I'm all for that (Though I'm not too big on Darwin). Anywho to me, humanity and human nature (which brings out anti-imperialism, and anti other things x.X) are the cause of war and suffering...ehh my penny has been pput in.

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NevesElocin

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Luminous

For those who don't have a problem with Imperialism, here's a quick Wiki definition:

[Fancy words bolded for emphasis.]

And a online dictionary definition for those who don't trust Wikipedia.

Strong imperialistic nations are aggressive little rabbits, and bring about far more problems they "solve". Feelings of imperialism I think tie in strongly with feelings of superiority, it's sort of the line of thinking that your country is entitled to more than it has. I doubt these countries are the sympathetic liberation squads they are being made out to be. With all anti-imperialism, you'd still probably see war, but I'd doubt you'd see a a large scale war of WWII proportions. Large scale wars are the result of large egos clashing, or even just one large ego going nuts. One of the primary causes of such egos is Imperialism.

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Arrianna

im·pe·ri·al·ism
–noun
1. the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies and dependencies.
2. advocacy of imperial interests.
3. an imperial system of government.
4. imperial government.
5. British. the policy of so uniting the separate parts of an empire with separate governments as to secure for certain purposes a single state.
[Origin: 1855–60; imperial1 + -ism]

Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

There is no mention of a superiority complex in any of the definitions in the dictionary. We are not discussing superiority complexes we are discussing Imperialism. You're response however is a perfect example of anti-imperialism. This belief that by conquering or taking control of a government there will automatically be superciliousness taking place and the country conquered would be better off on it's own. Can you back it up with examples? Perhaps some of these "far more problems" created?

WWI & II however are off the table. All large wars like them were not caused by Imperialism but by extensive mutual military protection treaties. Because you have weaker countries who shore up their defense by signing treaties with stronger countries that if they are attacked they will come to each others defense. When the next country has treaties with another and so on and so forth the instant one country goes to war every other is pulled in as well. It has been going on so long that even the Trojan war was supposed to be caused by it. Can you give an example of a "large war" that has had Imperialism and not these treaties at their root?

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Luminous

I think that in a lot of cases, imperialistic nations have that mind set when they take control of a country. When colonies were forming, it happened a lot more. Britain, America, Spain, etc.. Spain is a case I'd look at when debating imperialism. They brought peace to South America on one hand. On the other hand, they butchered up every squabbling(I like that word for some reason...) empire that was there at the time. Even if the Spanish conquest of the Aztecs and other inhabitants of Central and South America was to stop the fighting among the various war-like Empires, would that be cause to call it justified? I hope you see where I might find that somewhat debatable.

WWI is understandable, since that was pretty much as you say, a giant mess of treaties. WWII is a bit more ambiguous I think though, as I think Hitler was rather imperialistic. Certainly, he went beyond the scope of simply trying to regain Germany's glory after the Treaty of Versailles. And regardless of defensive pacts, I'm fairly certain that war would have started eventually anyways if only for self defence. I suppose that's up for debate though.


Ancient Greece is a possible place to look at for an example of a problem with Imperialism. They wanted to be independant city-states, rather than a united Empire(Although they did unite in the interests of mutal defence, a common sense decision). Athens and Sparta were imperialistic on the other hand. The mind set was that a united Greece would stop all the petty squabbling amongst the city-states. Of course, both these imperialistic cities eventually duked it out in an all out war(Far larger than squabbles betwen city-states), and even when Sparta eventually succeeded in finally turning Greece into a unified nation rather than bickering city-states, within years everyone was sick and tired of it, and revolted. Here in lies one of the problems I'm sort of talking about. Even if you are an Imperialistic nation trying to stop petty fights, the people might not want your help, and revolt even if you manage to exert control over them for a time.


I'm not going to make the generalization that Imperialism is always a bad thing, and every country that tries to bring others under their wing, so to speak, are evil spawn devil incarnates that must be burned at the stake for their heathonistic ways. Tis certainly not the case. What I do say is that in some cases, an imperialistic nation taking over may just result in war all the same due to revolts, etc, and in some cases imperialism causes slightly larger wars(Even if it is treaties that blow it out of proportion, imperialism is a factor that can cause one to invade a country, which would trigger such treaties). I have an on the fence opinion. Anti-imperialism causes wars to continue due to its laissez faire attitude(Hope I'm using that term right...), but all the same, imperialism isn't a whole lot better of an option.

Conclusive statement to wrap up my mess of random arguements: Anti-Imperialism is a lessar of two evils.

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