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Thread: Catholic Church gives Washington D.C. Ultimatium over Same Sex Marriage Bill

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    Re: Catholic Church gives Washington D.C. Ultimatium over Same Sex Marriage Bill

    I disagree and agree with a few points that you make chiefblackhammer. You are correct that calling catholics boy-rapists and comments that call the church out for being okay with child molestation are completely incorrect, and counter any previously made good points.
    What people are dissatisfied with is that the catholic church has set up many social welfare networks, and were it to pull these the disaster would be horrid. As for the seperation of church and states lets be honest with ourselves, the state has enough on its plate and we have seen how the government reacts to crisis. Not very well. What scares us is the fact that a group that prides itself on being religious can flex a lot of muscle for its fundemental ideology.

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    Re: Catholic Church gives Washington D.C. Ultimatium over Same Sex Marriage Bill

    There have been churches FOUNDED by gays/lesbians in certain states because other churches won't allow them to practice the same religion under the same roof!
    Source: http://www.gaychurch.org

    I know that's been the case in a few areas here in Minnesota--it's been televised over the last couple years. Either way, if God loves all his children, then why is the church--not just Catholicism--shunning a vast amount of people? Why should there be an entire segregated sect of churches? Are we in the fifties again? Are gay people the new minority?? First we segregate black people in to different churches for God knows how long, now we segregate gay people in to seperate churches? Should we put all the gay kids in different schools?

    Something isn't right about that.


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    Re: Catholic Church gives Washington D.C. Ultimatium over Same Sex Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by aceman67 View Post
    It is not my place, nor is it the church's, to dictate policy or law. Both Canada and the US actually have amendments in their constitutions and bill of rights prohibiting the influence of the Church on State (government) issues.
    Incorrect.

    I cannot say concerning Canada but the US Constitution (and Bill of Rights) does not prohibit the influence of the church on the Federal government, in fact it is the other way around. The Federal government cannot make laws regulating or prohibiting the free exercise of religion nor can it use religion to determine someone's worthiness to hold office. That is it. The entire width and breadth of the law concerning the Federal government and religion. The phrase "separation of church and state" comes from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote and was quoted by a member of the supreme court when explaining why federally funded schools could not require prayer as that could be considered federal regulation of religion. Said statement was seized upon and misquoted ever since by those who wish to separate religion from the "state" rather then the "state" from religion as specified in the Constitution.

    In other words the Archdiocese did the right thing in that if the state requires them to do things that break their religious beliefs they should discontinue their relationship with them since the state requiring them to do so is actually against the Constitution (ie regulating and prohibiting the exercise of their religion). With sufficient warning the government there should have no trouble finding a replacement or adjusting as needed. I doubt very much the Catholic Church there will discontinue all their programs as their charity works are a constant anywhere but there are limits to what they can do because of this of course. Interesting that so many would criticize them for standing by their convictions but then I guess integrity is not as fashionable as receiving charity these days.

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    Re: Catholic Church gives Washington D.C. Ultimatium over Same Sex Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefblackhammer View Post
    I completely have missed something here. Why is everyone just blaming the church?

    You argue that the church should be "required" to obey discrimination laws because they provide services based on money given by the government?

    I ask, why can't the government just take the money and pay the people providing the work directly leaving the church out altogether?

    Separation of church and state after all.

    If the government wants to start telling the church what they "have" to do based on money being provided then I respect the church's decision to back out. At the same time there is nothing keeping the state from continuing to provide the services without the church being involved if they are already paying for it. What keeps the state from paying those people as employees? Can't find workers on short notice? Please, look at the unemployment rate, you really want to tell me they couldn't find workers? That's BS, the state doesn't want to pay people directly because they would also have to pay state benefits as well.


    I don't agree at all that the church is being unreasonable for standing up for it's beliefs, it is their decision. Now don't get me wrong, I am not letting the church off the hook. They aren't suppose to be using state funds for this kind of thing. They are suppose to be doing it at out of the church's offerings and tithes. The Catholic Church isn't poor in anyway shape or form and can easily provide these services without state funds and completely make the law inapplicable to them.

    Both sides are wrong. The church should be doing it on their own and the state should be doing it as well on it's own. That is the way things are suppose to work. The real issue is that they are working together instead of separately and because of it they are playing games with the lives of people who need help the worst. That is a real shame.
    So does anyone know where this cooperation originated?

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    Re: Catholic Church gives Washington D.C. Ultimatium over Same Sex Marriage Bill

    I don't see why people give such a big damn over this whole issue, this wasn't a big deal until like what two years ago? I think people should put down their homophobic ideals and consider others for a change.... morons.

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    Re: Catholic Church gives Washington D.C. Ultimatium over Same Sex Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Hassun View Post
    So does anyone know where this cooperation originated?
    It is probably from the early years of George W Bush's presidency. He was slashing pork left and right and phasing out all kinds of programs that weren't getting results. He found out that private charities had a much higher sucess rate then government ones at lower costs but most of them are religious based and wouldn't have anything to do with government funding because of the strings attached. So he made a "Faith Based Initiative" that basically gave them immunity from government entanglements in exchange for government funding to take over certain programs as long as they could show results.

    Buuut... he's no longer President soooo...

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    Re: Catholic Church gives Washington D.C. Ultimatium over Same Sex Marriage Bill

    would the catholic church really do that? i mean just because gays can get married doesn't mean they would really do that right! i mean that is jsut super freakin unfair. they wouldn't be very good christians themselves if they did so i say go ahead D.C. call their bluff!

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    Re: Catholic Church gives Washington D.C. Ultimatium over Same Sex Marriage Bill

    My thoughts are all scattered D: I know exactly how I want this to sound but my fingers are being a touch autistic~

    Generally: The church wishes to close her doors to the evolving world because it's methodology is getting old.

    Also: The church is unable to crusade it's way out of this mess yet refuses to modernize.

    Furthermore: The only direction is northwest.?

    However, the church is a valid party as well. By giving this absolute choice the church is simply acting as it always has; according to the rules and principles it was founded on. Homosexuality is a sin against God and it is understandable that certain feet will be stepped on in a world that is becoming vastly different than that of Biblical times.

    However still, if the church decides to move in this direction absolutely the future of religion may be dim~

    Take Quebec as an example... religion use to be a major part of life but since the 70's it has taken a steeply downplayed role, many couples choose to forgo marriage completely and instead have a common-law arrangement because religion means that little.

    Just like neo-nazism there very well could be neo-christianity etc.

    Also, if the major problem is the homeless people not being taken care of and people not being able to adopt, is that really the churches fault? These people should be taken care of in the first place.
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