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Thread: Celebrate Christmas yes or no

  1. #17
    NalaMidnight Eggs Champion P.R. Princess may be famous one day P.R. Princess may be famous one day P.R. Princess's Avatar
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    Re: Celebrate Christmas yes or no

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna

    It originates in the early Christian/Catholic church. It is and always has been a Christian holiday, one that throughout the centuries the church leaders have had to keep rebuking the members for forgetting the point of and getting caught up in partying instead. There are a few symbols that have worked their way in that have pagan origins, such as the Yule log or mistletoe, but the majority of the symbolism is very much based in the Christian religion.

    The confusion in the US about it's origins is because in 1644 the English Parliament banned it's practice as "Heathen" (evidently the conservative members protested). As a result even the non-Anglicans that originally settled the USA didn't celebrate Christmas. It wasn't until the immigrants from Germany came that Christmas was celebrated here. Even then it continued to be quite scandalous for some time and there are still pockets in the US that still believe it to be heathen. That isn't to surprising however when you realize just how strong the anti-Catholic feelings were in the same parts of the country until fairly recently. For example many felt Kennedy couldn't get elected as President in 1961 because he was Catholic.
    MM yes I can see where you come from but when I look back at what gren quoted

    A winter festival was traditionally the most popular festival of the year in many cultures. Reasons included less agricultural work needing to be done during the winter, as well as people expecting longer days and shorter nights after the winter solstice in the Northern Hemisphere.[1] In part, the Christmas celebration was created by the early Church in order to entice pagan Romans to convert to Christianity without losing their own winter celebrations.[2][3] Most of the most important gods in the religions of Ishtar and Mithra had their birthdays on December 25
    you can see that they got the date because of the pegan gods b-days were on the 25th. so in a way it the pegans had something to do with it. The christains only wanted to get the pegans to be christain and they could still keep their own holidays.

    To me thats pretty dumb. I mean I would think that the christains would make them give up their own religions because it is not in acordance with the bible and if its not then they are sinning.

    I dont know how you all see it but thats how I see it as.

    ?.?

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    Re: Celebrate Christmas yes or no

    I would love to celebrate is heavily.But my family doesn't really believe in the whole gift giving thing.Cuase they are super religious(and Im happy im not) and they believe christmas is a day to celebrate Jesus,when it's not even his birthday.WTF?!I've told my parents that,but of course,they are too ignorant to listen to scientific theory and explanations.I dont know who lied and said,December 25th,is Jesus's b-day.When I live on my own,I will definately celebrate christmas.

  3. #19
    Lady Barronmore Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna's Avatar
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    Re: Celebrate Christmas yes or no

    Quote Originally Posted by P.R. Princes View Post

    you can see that they got the date because of the pegan gods b-days were on the 25th. so in a way it the pegans had something to do with it. The christains only wanted to get the pegans to be christain and they could still keep their own holidays.

    To me thats pretty dumb. I mean I would think that the christains would make them give up their own religions because it is not in acordance with the bible and if its not then they are sinning.

    I dont know how you all see it but thats how I see it as.

    ?.?
    Well, as much as I like Wikipedia it is not the end all of knowledge. So no offense but I can tell you didn't bother to check the link I gave you earlier.

    Catholic Encyclopedia: Christmas

    If you had you would have been able to read a blow by blow of when it came to be celebrated in each region and on what dates. There isn't a month on the calendar that it hasn't been celebrated on. December 25th merely won out for whatever reason but from the beginning any time there were attempts to create a connection to pagan celebrations it was strenuously denounced. Hence no matter what the date is the celebration it's self is not pagan. That would be like claiming that just because Samantha (a friend of mine) was born on Halloween when we celebrate her birthday we are actually engaging in Wiccan worship.


    Here: (from the above link)
    ORIGIN OF DATE
    The Gospels

    Concerning the date of Christ's birth the Gospels give no help; upon their data contradictory arguments are based. The census would have been impossible in winter: a whole population could not then be put in motion. Again, in winter it must have been; then only field labour was suspended. But Rome was not thus considerate. Authorities moreover differ as to whether shepherds could or would keep flocks exposed during the nights of the rainy season.

    Zachary's temple service

    Arguments based on Zachary's temple ministry are unreliable, though the calculations of antiquity (see above) have been revived in yet more complicated form, e.g. by Friedlieb (Leben J. Christi des Erlösers, Münster, 1887, p. 312). The twenty-four classes of Jewish priests, it is urged, served each a week in the Temple; Zachary was in the eighth class, Abia. The Temple was destroyed 9 Ab, A.D. 70; late rabbinical tradition says that class 1, Jojarib, was then serving. From these untrustworthy data, assuming that Christ was born A.U.C. 749, and that never in seventy turbulent years the weekly succession failed, it is calculated that the eighth class was serving 2-9 October, A.U.C. 748, whence Christ's conception falls in March, and birth presumably in December. Kellner (op. cit., pp. 106, 107) shows how hopeless is the calculation of Zachary's week from any point before or after it.

    Analogy to Old Testament festivals

    It seems impossible, on analogy of the relation of Passover and Pentecost to Easter and Whitsuntide, to connect the Nativity with the feast of Tabernacles, as did, e.g., Lightfoot (Horæ Hebr, et Talm., II, 32), arguing from Old Testament prophecy, e.g. Zacharias 14:16 sqq.; combining, too, the fact of Christ's death in Nisan with Daniel's prophecy of a three and one-half years' ministry (9:27), he puts the birth in Tisri, i.e. September. As undesirable is it to connect 25 December with the Eastern (December) feast of Dedication (Jos. Ant. Jud., XII, vii, 6).

    Natalis Invicti

    The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism, see Cumont's epoch-making "Textes et Monuments" etc., I, ii, 4, 6, p. 355. Mommsen (Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum, 12, p. 338) has collected the evidence for the feast, which reached its climax of popularity under Aurelian in 274. Filippo del Torre in 1700 first saw its importance; it is marked, as has been said, without addition in Philocalus' Calendar. It would be impossible here even to outline the history of solarsymbolism and language as applied to God, the Messiah, and Christ in Jewish or Christian canonical, patristic, or devotional works. Hymns and Christmas offices abound in instances; the texts are well arranged by Cumont (op. cit., addit. Note C, p. 355).

    The earliest rapprochement of the births of Christ and the sun is in Cyprian, "De pasch. Comp.", xix, "O quam præclare providentia ut illo die quo natus est Sol . . . nasceretur Christus." — "O, how wonderfully actedProvidence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born."

    In the fourth century, Chrysostom, "del Solst. Et Æquin." (II, p. 118, ed. 1588), says: "Sed et dominus noster nascitur mense decembris . . . VIII Kal. Ian. . . . Sed et Invicti Natalem appelant. Quis utique tam invictus nisi dominus noster? . . . Vel quod dicant Solis esse natalem, ipse est Sol iustitiæ." — "But Our Lord, too, is born in the month of December . . . the eight before the calends of January [25 December] . . ., But they call it the 'Birthday of the Unconquered'. Who indeed is so unconquered as Our Lord . . .? Or, if they say that it is the birthday of the Sun, He is the Sun of Justice."

    Already Tertullian (Apol., 16; cf. Ad. Nat., I, 13; Orig. c. Cels., VIII, 67, etc) had to assert that Sol was not the Christians' God; Augustine (Tract xxxiv, in Joan. In P.L., XXXV, 1652) denounces the heretical identification of Christ with Sol.

    Pope Leo I (Serm. xxxvii in nat. dom., VII, 4; xxii, II, 6 in P. L., LIV, 218 and 198) bitterly reproves solar survivals — Christians, on the very doorstep of the Apostles' basilica, turn to adore the rising sun. Sun-worship has bequeathed features to modern popular worship in Armenia, where Christians had once temporarily and externally conformed to the cult of the material sun (Cumont, op. cit., p. 356).

    But even should a deliberate and legitimate "baptism" of a pagan feast be seen here no more than the transference of the date need be supposed. The "mountain-birth" of Mithra and Christ's in the "grotto" have nothing in common: Mithra's adoring shepherds (Cumont, op. cit., I, ii, 4, p. 304 sqq.) are rather borrowed from Christian sources than vice versa.

    Other theories of pagan origin

    The origin of Christmas should not be sought in the Saturnalia (1-23 December) nor even in the midnight holy birth at Eleusis (see J.E. Harrison, Prolegom., p. 549) with its probable connection through Phrygia with the Naasene heretics, or even with the Alexandrian ceremony quoted above; nor yet in rites analogous to the midwinter cult at Delphi of the cradled Dionysus, with his revocation from the sea to a new birth (Harrison, op. cit., 402 sqq.).

    The astronomical theory

    Duchesne (Les origines du culte chrétien, Paris, 1902, 262 sqq.) advances the "astronomical" theory that, given 25 March as Christ's death-day [historically impossible, but a tradition old as Tertullian (Adv. Jud., 8)], the popular instinct, demanding an exact number of years in a Divine life, would place His conception on the same date, His birth 25 December. This theory is best supported by the fact that certain Montanists (Sozomen, Hist. Eccl., VII, 18) kept Easter on 6 April; both 25 December and 6 January are thus simultaneously explained. The reckoning, moreover, is wholly in keeping with the arguments based on number and astronomy and "convenience", then so popular. Unfortunately, there is no contemporary evidence for the celebration in the fourth century of Christ's conception on 25 March.

    Conclusion

    The present writer in inclined to think that, be the origin of the feast in East or West, and though the abundance of analogous midwinter festivals may indefinitely have helped the choice of the December date, the same instinct which set Natalis Invicti at the winter solstice will have sufficed, apart from deliberate adaptation or curious calculation, to set the Christian feast there too.


    The real question isn't whether it is pagan since it clearly isn't but whether you believe in celebrating birthdays? If you do and you are a practicing Christian what more important birthday is there?

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    Re: Celebrate Christmas yes or no

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna
    The real question isn't whether it is pagan since it clearly isn't but whether you believe in celebrating birthdays? If you do and you are a practicing Christian what more important birthday is there?
    mm yes I can sse where you are coming from but why celebrate a date that is not the true date. I do celebrate birthdays but what I am saying is that the church is trying to get us to celebrate his birth yet its not his birthday. Also no where in the bible does it say that we have to celebrate it and even in what you have quoted says that his birthday is sometime in spring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna
    There isn't a month on the calendar that it hasn't been celebrated on. December 25th merely won out for whatever reason
    Well I can see what your saying but if it was celebrated on every month at sometime then why should they have it on december if its no where near his birthday. And if I go back to the wikpedia site ( and yes I did go look at the other site you listed) you can see the christains were trying to get the pegans to join so instead of making the pegans having to loose a holiday they decided to make christmas on the same day as some of the gods birthdays. To me thats not right because if the pegans dont want to join then thats them but they shouldn't have made it look like December is Jesus's birthday when its not. And if you can see what I'm saying in a way it can be considered a pegan holiday because it is the same day that they celebrate the birth of some of their gods.

    Did you realize that historians (and the Bible) agree that Jesus Christ wasn't born anywhere near Dec. 25? Or that this particular date was well known for its pagan religious celebrations long before Jesus Christ was born?
    I found this quote from the same place as yours came from.

    But yes I see where your coming from.

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  5. #21
    Lady Barronmore Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna's Avatar
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    Re: Celebrate Christmas yes or no

    Quote Originally Posted by P.R. Princes View Post
    even in what you have quoted says that his birthday is sometime in spring.
    Actually it says we have no idea when his birthday is. Some think it was in the spring some think he was conceived in the spring hence a winter birthday (9 months later).



    Quote Originally Posted by P.R. Princes View Post
    you can see the christains were trying to get the pegans to join so instead of making the pegans having to loose a holiday they decided to make christmas on the same day as some of the gods birthdays. To me thats not right because if the pegans dont want to join then thats them but they shouldn't have made it look like December is Jesus's birthday when its not. And if you can see what I'm saying in a way it can be considered a pegan holiday because it is the same day that they celebrate the birth of some of their gods.
    So you are feeling bad for the pagans because the church picked the same time of year as their celebration for something else? Why?

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    Otaku crimson is off to a good start crimson's Avatar
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    Re: Celebrate Christmas yes or no

    hmm... i guess the easiest answer is why not?!

    i guess christmas has been accepted as an entirely christin traditu=ion all around the world, but where i come from, i believe it has evolved into a common day to share your blessings and a day of merriment... a day celebrated by both islamics and catholics alike... we should learn to treat it more that way than any other way there is...
    i'll choose to love whoever i wish to love and nobody can stop me from doing so ----

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    edited from SamBakZa.net

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    Re: Celebrate Christmas yes or no

    We celebrate a very special holiday in our family.

    Chanukamasule! (pronounce it : Chanukamussule)

    Chanukah/Christmas/Yule

    Chanuka, because were Jewish. Christmas, because my Dad had an Anglican grandfather, and my brother-in-law in Catholic. So do a bit of Christmas for my niece. I celebrate Yule, sometimes I just call it all Winterfest!. Sounds nice and snowy. We just mushed them together, and say Chanukamusule. She's the luckiest little girl. She gets her Chanukah gifts, then she gets some Christmas gifts, then I give her gifts for Yule. Spoiled rotten! We even have what we refer to as "the Chanukah bush" on the screened in porch. My sister made a topper that looks like a Rabbi all dressed in blue, silver, and white. My niece says it's Moses. lol

  8. #24
    Lady Barronmore Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna's Avatar
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    Re: Celebrate Christmas yes or no

    Quote Originally Posted by crimson View Post
    hmm... i guess the easiest answer is why not?!
    And the easiest answer would be because they themselves certainly didn't mind. No one was forcing them to give anything up, Constantine himself wasn't baptized until his death, and the pagans in question were themselves polytheists. Everything indicates that for them it was just a new addition to the old holiday rather then a replacement. They were always ready for a new reason to party.
    "De pasch. Comp.", xix, "O quam præclare providentia ut illo die quo natus est Sol . . . nasceretur Christus." — "O, how wonderfully actedProvidence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born."
    Hence why the Christians had to be reminded not to do the same which is also proof that even set on the same day it wasn't the same holiday anymore then Christmas and Chanukah is...

    Unless you practice Chanukamasule!

    I guess no matter how much things change some things still stay the same.

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