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Thread: Death Penalty... fair punishment????

  1. #137
    Otaku PsiKnot may be famous one day PsiKnot may be famous one day PsiKnot's Avatar
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    Re: Death Penalty... fair punishment????

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna View Post
    I often found my beliefs condemned by other Christian religions because my own does not condemn killing in defense, in war, or execution for crimes. Theirs does.
    I'm a bit confused here, and I don't want this to turn into a religious debate, but If I remember correctly your LDS? Doesn't the Book of Mormon talk about blood atonement?

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    Re: Death Penalty... fair punishment????

    ok i am not sure about the U.S but in Canada we don't have any death penalty and it really suk. the "bad" guys doesn't even care if they shoot someone in the face. cause we don't have death penalty, and the prison here is extremely relaxing for them cause they have no responsibility and they have cloth to wear food to eat so i think death penalty is pretty good, atleast it will teach them a lesson

  3. #139
    Lady Barronmore Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna's Avatar
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    Re: Death Penalty... fair punishment????

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubz View Post
    No matter which interpretation is correct or not, whether it be 'kill' or 'murder,' it does not mention a grant of allowance for military service, or execution either.
    It doesn't need to. The word that should have been interpreted as "murder" was a word used only to mean an unlawful killing and they themselves had a very strict definition of what an unlawful killing was. There is no exemption for military service or execution because they didn't need one. They already had a legal definition of what WAS murder and anything not included WAS NOT. That is why in the same government documents that include the 10 commandments (yes, the commandments were actually part of a code of law) it also includes capitol punishment for certain crimes up to and including striking or cursing your parents. It is not an inconsistency as many people like to think but rather a common misunderstanding by people who read these historical records of the Jews without an understanding of the culture or language of the time.


    I also find it very amusing that in one breath you are claiming that there is no excuse for killing under the 10 commandments (the very same claim by religions that are against the death penalty) and in the next that it has nothing to do with countries striking down that same penalty. Take my challenge. Look up those 128 countries and their religions. Be surprised. From what I remember off the top of my head it started with the predominantly Catholic countries but I could be wrong. It might also behoove you to remember that most countries don't have the separation of state from religion the US does.


    Quote Originally Posted by PsiKnot View Post
    I'm a bit confused here, and I don't want this to turn into a religious debate, but If I remember correctly your LDS? Doesn't the Book of Mormon talk about blood atonement?
    No more then the Bible. The only blood atonement mentioned in it is that of Christ's.
    Scripture Search

    Edit: I knew what you were referring to though and Barronmore helped me track it down. Our belief in capitol punishment comes from the Bible in Genesis 9:6 as well as Exodus 21:12, Leviticus 24:17, and Numbers 35:30-31.
    Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

    Numbers 35:30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.
    31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.
    Those passages were reaffirmed in our Doctrine and Covenants as well which is probably where the idea that the belief comes from the LDS church comes from. The other thing you are probably referring to is from the writings of President Joseph Fielding Smith where he taught that that punishment was part of the restitution. In both references it is something that must be/can only be done through the laws of the land.
    Last edited by Arrianna; Mar 24, 2007 at 09:03 PM. Reason: answering Psiknot

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  4. #140
    Otaku Chubz may be famous one day Chubz may be famous one day Chubz's Avatar
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    Re: Death Penalty... fair punishment????

    Quote Originally Posted by Barronmore View Post
    Normally, I would agree with you. You are missing one thing though, the constitution is very clear on what the federal government may/may not do. Anything that the constition does not allow the federal government to do is specificlly the juristiction of the states. The Constitution does not give congress the power of capitol punishment, therefore it is for each and every state to decide if they will allow capitol punishment or not.

    Hm......out of interest, can the states ratify certain powers to the federal government (like...can they have referendums on the matter of topics such as abortion or the death penalty which would give the federal government the overall say?)

    If the Constitution is supposed to protect congressmen from doing those things, then most certainly that is a cheap way of trying to change the laws....If the States are given those powers, then it should be entirely up to the state to change it and make those decisions.

    Like I said in my last post, I don't believe in pushing things on others, it's entirely up to the people, so I will 100% agree with you that what the congressmen would be trying to do is wrong, because it's trying to take away those rights given to the states.

    Our constitution is different, because anything not given specifically to the provincial or federal governments immediately reverts to federal jurisdiction. In our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the provinces are given a "notwithstanding clause" for policies they don't agree with, and an "opt out clause" for government programs they don't want. But certain provisions in the Charter are protected from the notwithstanding clause. It makes our Constitution are more centralized government. The notwithstanding clause is rarely used, as the Charter is seeing as being the supreme document.....

    I also find it very amusing that in one breath you are claiming that there is no excuse for killing under the 10 commandments (the very same claim by religions that are against the death penalty) and in the next that it has nothing to do with countries striking down that same penalty
    Oh, I was just being the devils advocate there, posing the question of what is considered acceptable killing (personally, I believe in self-defence and defensive military action as well...I just differ on the subject of death penalty). Certainly they were parts of codes of law, but it is now switching to legal doctrine. Like.....the Canadian Constitution recognizes the role of religion, opening with "Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law".

    When I was saying it had nothing to do with striking down the death penalty, I mean that when governments legally phrase anti-death penalty legislation, it is written in legal doctrine, not using religious scripture. However, the governments would be representing the majority of people, and thus the majority religion, but the phrasing is entirely legal, not scriptural. It's not that religion wouldn't be playing a role in decision making (with governments representing the constituency), but that scriptures would not play a part in legal decisions (like, they won't just substitute a scripture for a law....they'll write it in legal definition, so that the interpretation is not so much up in the air).

    The governments need to phrase things legally to conform with U.N. policies on the death penalty, etc....Not that religion doesn't play a role elsewhere.

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  5. #141
    Lady Barronmore Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna's Avatar
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    Re: Death Penalty... fair punishment????

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubz View Post
    Hm......out of interest, can the states ratify certain powers to the federal government (like...can they have referendums on the matter of topics such as abortion or the death penalty which would give the federal government the overall say?)
    Yes, it is called a Constitutional Amendment and requires that it be passed by 3/4ths of the states.

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    Re: Death Penalty... fair punishment????

    Ah, right. Thanks.

    I'm guessing then that the congressmen trying to go through the supreme court are doing so because the states don't want to make a Constitutional Amendment? (I can certainly see not doing that since they are already given the right to choose having the death penalty or not)

    *Oh, just so as not to confuse, my views aren't aimed at the United States or any specific country or anything.....it's just personal views*

    *EDIT: That's quite a nifty Scripture Search link*
    Last edited by Chubz; Mar 24, 2007 at 10:00 PM.

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    Lady Barronmore Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna's Avatar
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    Re: Death Penalty... fair punishment????

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubz View Post
    Ah, right. Thanks.

    I'm guessing then that the congressmen trying to go through the supreme court are doing so because the states don't want to make a Constitutional Amendment? (I can certainly see not doing that since they are already given the right to choose having the death penalty or not)
    Got it in one.

    We also have lobby groups that will do a judge search every time a law is passed by a state they don't like until they can find a federal judge to declare it unconstitutional even when it has nothing to do with it. Unless the state is willing to see it all the way to the supreme court then the law is thrown out. It's how the lobbyists get around having to abide by the will of the people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chubz View Post
    *EDIT: That's quite a nifty Scripture Search link*
    I rather think so as well.
    Last edited by Arrianna; Mar 25, 2007 at 01:00 PM.

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    Re: Death Penalty... fair punishment????

    "You have wronged me," —done something that contradicts my beliefs are hurts me in any way "so therefore I shall deprive you of your life and put you out of mine."

    The only good thing about putting criminals on death row is clearing more space in the jails for more criminals, and putting them out of one's own life. Dying doesn't cleanse anyone of anything, does it? it may make them regret, that's for sure; but does it make them see the "error" of their ways? Does it help undue any of the "harm" this criminal has done? No, not really in my opinion... i'd rather let them live and study them, as a scientist who study's an animal's behavior—er, no, that's wrong— like a psychologist, who studies why one does what one does. Learn a bit more about them before you kill them; that way you might prevent yourself from being "wronged" yet again.
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