Thread: Designer Children

Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd

So, who of you would consider or condone this? How many would protest?

Personally, I would accept this because eventually, it'll become regular society. Though many to-be children could be harmed to do radical transgenesis.

There's a reason why genetic discrimination is forbidden by law.

I would most definitely condone it. As humans, gene therapy is not essential for our survival, though I'll admit that it may be helpful in treating certain diseases. However, if human genetic engineering were allowed, it's a sure way to create an even larger gap between the rich and the poor. Genetic engineering is expensive, and while it may be best for the child, the rich would most definitely use it to their advantage, while those who cannot afford it will give birth to their children naturally, and hence a "superior race" will be born. Genetic engineering for human enhancement will most definitely lead to genetic discrimination and prejudice, and honestly speaking, we don't need more ways to discriminate. Adolf Hitler attempted to create a "superior race" of Germans, but luckily, he lacked the technological means to do so effectively.

You would personally accept this notion of genetic engineering? I think you should see a film called Gattaca. One of the best science-fiction films ever, it elucidates the debate over tampering with human genetics. Watch the film, then come back to this debate. You'll understand the controversy behind human genetic engineering a lot better than reading those books that you mightn't understand.

It's fascinating though, what you can do with technology.

What I mightn't understand was not in question nor the content therein. That which boggled my head you do not know and have instead assumed, yet I am the ignorant one between us two.

My friend, you have joined the majority with your statement and once again advertised the fatalistic point of view.

Do you have a time machine? Probably not, so how can you tell me what will come to pass and not doubt it wholeheartedly? There's a lot of hate out there today and it'll be there tomorrow and for years to come, even after we survive the untold of global catastrophe's they are so sure will come. Sooner or later I hope society will come to see things eye to eye with nature, it may take a long time or it might happen in twenty years.

Who knows.

Adolf Hitler? You wish to dig up that old thought, fine. He was called a genius just a little off the hinge when it came to humanitarianism. I ain't never heard of a contemporary scientist that crazy, or that motivated, yet. Hey, if McCain or Obama ends up being the next Hitler, Coke's on me. Hitler was insane and hey, he ruled in a completely different time.
If a wacko wanted to kill a thousand people it would be easier today. No one would really notice it, those crazy things technology can do.

And hey, when did I ever type genetic engineering? Sounds like assumptions are being made again.

I apologize if I made any assumptions that offended you. I had a splitting headache earlier, so I'll allow that I may not have been thinking too straight. Let's get some things cleared up.

Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd

Anyway, one of the books I read talked a lot about modifying children and what-not.

By "modifying children", I assumed that you were referring to the modification of the genotype of the unborn individual. My assumption was further backed up by your latter remark of the parents choosing the most desirable characteristics.

Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd

Moreover, this couple, I shall call Mary and Mitch, decided to have a baby, yes the decided. They wanted a girl.

Preimplantation Genetic Diagnosis allows you to determine the gender of the embryo, and therefore allows a gender preference. It is a considerably expensive procedure, and so, like I've said before, will widen the gap between people who can afford the procedure (the wealthy - a minority) and a majority of patients who may benefit but cannot afford the service. As I've said before, this will ensure that genetic discrimination and prejudice be born.

Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd

Mitch and Mary wanted the baby to have the best of each of their physical features, so it was done and what not. They chose embryo X because it held the most desirable traits/characteristics...

Preimplantation Genetic Diagnosis also has the potential for use in genetic aspects unrelated to medical necessity (i.e. most desirable traits/characteristics, as you aforementioned). Hence the panorama of a "designer baby" can be closely related to Preimplantation Genetic Diagnosis.

Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd

Do you have a time machine? Probably not, so how can you tell me what will come to pass and not doubt it wholeheartedly?

I doubt there is any need for the sarcasm in your rhetorical questions. I merely answered your original questions in my previous post, of which I believe that your original query was;

Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd

So, who of you would consider or condone this? How many would protest?

I would most definitely protest it, as I've made clear before. I do not wish for a new type of discrimination to be born, be it right now in my lifetime, or the lifetime of my children, and so on.

Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd

Sooner or later I hope society will come to see things eye to eye with nature, it may take a long time or it might happen in twenty years.

You're a little self-contradictory here. If you so wish to see things eye to eye with nature, I believe the best way would be the natural way; to conceive and give birth without the use of reproduction technologies and modifications.

Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd

Adolf Hitler? You wish to dig up that old thought, fine. He was called a genius just a little off the hinge when it came to humanitarianism. I ain't never heard of a contemporary scientist that crazy, or that motivated, yet. Hey, if McCain or Obama ends up being the next Hitler, Coke's on me. Hitler was insane and hey, he ruled in a completely different time.
If a wacko wanted to kill a thousand people it would be easier today. No one would really notice it, those crazy things technology can do.

Hitler was not insane. Again, no need for the sarcasm.

Few people realize that the intelligence tests being used today — of which the IQ test continues to be the most popular — represent the end result of a historical process that has its origins in racial and cultural bigotry. Many of the founding fathers of the modern testing industry advocated eugenics. Eugenics is a movement concerned with the selective breeding of human beings. Selected humans would be mated with each other in an attempt to obtain certain traits in their offspring, much the same way that animal breeders work with champion stock. The eventual goal of eugenics is to create a better human race. The Nazis took this idea to the extreme. All “inferior” humans, especially Jews, retarded children or adults, and any individuals with genetic defects, were to be destroyed. So many ill and retarded people, and many Jews, were killed during World War II.

My point is, if Hitler had access to the technologies we have today, you can bet that he would have used it to his advantage to create his superior German race.

I doubt that it matters whether Hitler lived in the 1900s or the 21st century. It's a universal truth that history repeats itself. If your goal is to create a superior human race, it doesn't particularly matter how you do it, and with modern technology, human genetic engineering can achieve vast results. I've said it once, I'll say it again - I do not wish for yet another form of discrimination to be born.

Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd

And hey, when did I ever type genetic engineering? Sounds like assumptions are being made again.

The whole notion of modifying and choosing the embryo (to gain a preferred sex - "they wanted a girl"; of wanting their baby to "have the best of each of their physical features"; of obtaining "the most desirable traits/characteristics") is technically referred to as human genetic engineering, wherein the genotype of the unborn individual is modified as a way of controlling what traits it will possess when born.

I'm currently reading a book called Brave New World. I've only read about two chapters, but to create the "perfect" working individual, the embryos are put through harsh environments; if they survive the child that they become is conditioned to whichever caste the economy needs them for. The conditioning involves electric shock treatments and some sort of hypnotism while they sleep, chanting over and over the proper ways to interact with the other castes.

I've only read two chapters, but I'm still surprised it was a book written in the 1920s.

well, as my understanding this is once again the humans trying to act like little gods of their universe and trying to make it all "perfect" according to their standarts. For me as mystical stated, will be another excuse for ppl to be racist. Then it will not be by color or race but by genetics... and right now we know the "good" side of this experiment... we don't really know the real repercutions of this action. I have learned that when you mess arounf with the natural way of things... things don't go right. Even if they begun "right" or it is thought....

Modified Children reminds me of the book Ender's Shadow by Orson Scott Card in which this actually takes place to give the child in question God-like intelligence (Was able to survive alone on the streets at age one and live), but at the cost of MUCH faster life and death, never stopping the child's growth. This was called the Anton's Key.

Do I condone this or not I'm not even sure, I can conceive of the idea of it happening, if it isn't already, but what concerns me most of all are the drawbacks - as there will be drawbacks. Some people would call this playing God even further and do what those people do when they get angry. Some might call these babies as not really human, sure they wre created via egg and sperm, but their entire existance from the most the egg and sperm made contact was being experimented one, or genetically altered if such a thing is "mastered", at the core of their entire life.They might be considered an alien race far superior to that of the human race, if scientists are able to do an Anton's Key type deal.

Others would claim 'outside abortion' - death of a baby that has yet to be born, but is one that is outside of the mother's womb. Would this be stepping on unforseen laws that God (for the religious) or the Universe (Other percent) or whatever (the rest of the human population) placed down before us such as morals, love, hate, ect. I'm not one to even hazard a guess at if it is right or wrong - there are consequences for both choices. Even with legal consent would it be considered legal, if done by a trained and proven scientist, would it be a crime or morally wrong?

I say as long as you can and WILL clean up the consequences personally instead of running away or giving it to someone else, then feel free to do it.

Originally Posted by mystical shadow angel

I think you should see a film called Gattaca. One of the best science-fiction films ever, it elucidates the debate over tampering with human genetics.

Absolutely. Gattaca's one of the best films ever produced, and definitely one of my all-time top films.

Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd

Do you have a time machine? Probably not, so how can you tell me what will come to pass and not doubt it wholeheartedly? There's a lot of hate out there today and it'll be there tomorrow and for years to come, even after we survive the untold of global catastrophe's they are so sure will come. Sooner or later I hope society will come to see things eye to eye with nature, it may take a long time or it might happen in twenty years.

If there's a lot of hate out there, why would you wish for more hate to be born via genetic discrimination and prejudice? 'Cuz that's basically what you're agreeing to - a new form of discrimination. Most people don't realize it, but genetic discrimination is already a form of prejudice. Insurance companies, for example, may look at your genetic tests to determine which insurance coverage to provide. Factors such as whether you're more at risk of heart disease and other hereditary diseases are all shown in genetic tests. They mightn't want to cover for you if it means you're at a higher risk of dying from diseases than the next applicant, and so on.

Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd

Adolf Hitler? You wish to dig up that old thought, fine. He was called a genius just a little off the hinge when it came to humanitarianism. I ain't never heard of a contemporary scientist that crazy, or that motivated, yet. Hey, if McCain or Obama ends up being the next Hitler, Coke's on me. Hitler was insane and hey, he ruled in a completely different time.

I'd like you answer that with another quote,

Originally Posted by mystical shadow angel

I doubt that it matters whether Hitler lived in the 1900s or the 21st century. It's a universal truth that history repeats itself.

Moving on.

Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd

If a wacko wanted to kill a thousand people it would be easier today. No one would really notice it, those crazy things technology can do.

No matter how advanced technology has become, you cannot kill a thousand people without anyone noticing.

Originally Posted by FLawEdmiNd

And hey, when did I ever type genetic engineering? Sounds like assumptions are being made again.

If you so wish to avoid incorrect assumptions, perhaps you should have made yourself clearer in the first post. Besides which, what you're on about is technically, genetic engineering. In that sense, it wasn't an assumption on her behalf, but rather, the effective use of the technical term.

Originally Posted by Sazuka

I've only read two chapters, but I'm still surprised it was a book written in the 1920s.

I believe it was around this time that people started experimenting with eugenics. Adolf Hitler and his faculty of curious scientists all did their own experiments during WWII. If I remember back to my modern history classes, they did all sorts of horrible things like injecting chemicals into the eyes to see if they could change the colour, stitching twins' backs together to see if they could form Siamese twins, and subjecting prisoners (Jews and POWs) to large doses of radiation as an experimental form of sterilization.