abby724

I tried my best to make sure that there weren't any existing live topics on this. The only thread I found closed on April of 2006, probably due to... lack of intelligent discussions...

For those of you who don't know, lolicon is the fetish (though the word can also be the fetishist) of young, underage females, and shotacon is the male equivalent. There are quite informative articles on Wikipedia concerning the two—both of which I have linked—, and there's an interesting, dead thread on lolicon modeling in Japan in the Japanese Culture section. And so, here are a few questions for you:

How could society be affected if these complexes are widely accepted? Is it immoral to hold such fetishes? Are the people who hold these fetishes immoral? Why or why not? And should [the spread of] lolicon and shotacon be legalized?

Concerning media such as manga, video games, drama CDs, novels, anime, etc.

I, personally think that the distribution of lolicon and shotacon works may actually lower sex crimes. People attracted to real children —and I don't think pedophilia is normal, and may need some psychological treatment, though I think it's possible a pedophile's brains is hardwired differently, seeing as studies have found brains of homosexuals are different from those of a heterosexual person's— would be able to... "let off some steam" into and with something harmless. I'm the kind of person who thinks that a guy reading graphic lolicon manga has done less harm than a guy who's actually gone out there and molested an underage girl who isn't made out of ink and printed on paper. And for those of you who say that the influence of lolicon and shotacon will definitely lead to more sex crimes, I have to say that sexual child abuse is one thing that most sane and responsible people don't plan to do.

I can understand the appeal of lolicon and shotacon, actually... The status of being under the age of consent is associated with lack of power, and the desire to be dominant is something that all humans experience, at least once in their life. I can accept that the desire to be dominant or more powerful is something natural, and I don't abhor the people who like to fantasize and enjoy them through various media involving fictional scenarios. What I do abhor is, actual violation of human rights. I think child pornography is sick, and that the children being used in such media go through things that are psychologically damaging. Lolicon and shotacon, on the other hand, involve fictional characters and scenarios, are created with [artistic] media (ink, pencil, paint, Paintshop Pro, etc.), and when it comes to human resources (voice actors, writers, etc.), there are no children involved. Only responsible, sane, working-class adults.

Concerning underage models. See also: Tsurara's thread in Japanese Culture.

Once it becomes accepted practice for an actual underage person to participate in photo shoots wearing only G-strings, then I think it becomes a problem. And while these children are paid—and I'm guessing a lot of money—, and they're not being touched by adults, and that they could always call the police or Children's Services, it's still using them in some way or form, right? Maternal instincts require that I be protective of these children... and there's a reason they're associated with a lack of power, right? I mean, that's their whole appeal... Yet I'm still conflicted on whether I think underage modeling should be legal or not. No one's actually being molested, any sort of sexual harassment will always stay illegal, and the models have a choice whether or not to continue modeling, but it's still... Isn't it letting your desires and urges loose on children?
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And if anyone's wondering... I'm a damned fan of Yuzuki Ichi, known (or at least, that's what I know her most) for her fluffy, light, non-explicit-it's-all-innocent-girly-cute-pink-stuff-involving-elementary-to-middle-school-love-and-how-the-hell-can-you-resist-that-pen-and-wash-stuffed-bunny Boys Love manga, though she has done some hardcore shotacon works, of which I am also a fan of. So yes, I am a fan of shotacon... Don't kill me, I haven't molested anyone yet... XD

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Hassun

Shotacon doesn't have a long "o" so it doesn't need a macron. I'll edit it for you.

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Corvus

hrmmm. this is a hard one.
The moral side of me says NO! end of story for reasons that cannot be counted let alone held by the AO servers (I'm definately downplaying their ability a little) or my hands would fall off whichever happens first. However I'm also a psychology Major and we've discussed (briefly) the sex drive in males and females. While the cute innocent and dependable nature is desireable to the average male (even if he wont admit it), it's natural for anyone who's not fully at terms with themselves as a secure individual (and honestly who is) so they'd like someone to depend on them to let them know that they're strong.

However that being said I don't approve of this as a permanent solution there's some definate psychological help needed for any guy or girl who honestly considers a little boy or girl as a tasty dish (so to speak) as they pass them on their way to school because that's just not right. At least that's where I draw my line (did I make any mistakes Hassun? I hope not because that'd mean eternal torment in his version of hell.)

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atomik_sprout

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tsurara

Virtual pornography is a victimless pursuit. Whether the subject is a grown woman, an old man, a dog, a horse, an anthropomorphic dragon, a chick with ... er... equipment, or a little boy or girl. Creating it, selling it, purchasing it or viewing it infringes on the rights of no one at all. Making it a crime would not only be an attempt to legislate morality (which, I believe, should be personal) and censorship in general.

Just because someone has a socially abberant desire (or set of desires) doesn't mean that he or she will ever ACT on them. Our view of what is acceptable morally and sexually has changed IMMENSELY throughout history and a great deal of societies we respect had (and ocaisionally still DO have) instutionalized forms of pederasty, extremely low ages of consent, and/or entirely different views of adolescent sexuality.

Just because the majority of Americans have come to view the idea of an adult in sexual contact with a child as deplorable, disgusting and unnatural doesn't mean we are necesarily the end all and be all of that particular debate.

Turning up your nose and saying "disgusting, those people should be shot" then ignoring the idea of a dialogue on the subject at all because it is taboo may be the "average" politically correct solution... but rarely is right and wrong an issue of black and white. And what you think is disgusting now may be considered perfectly acceptable in another hundred years (think about it -- homosexuality, showing your ankles, women working, women learning, free practice of "pagan" religions, boobies on cable television...). As for this particular subject: it has already been acceptable, to a point, in quite a few societies for a good deal of history.

In short: demonizing and burying a tendency that obviously exists, has a historical precept and may be biologically wired into some, isn't going to make it go away or bring us any closer to understanding it. I am for some regulation of adult materials' sale to minors, the mentally ill, and convicted sex offenders. I'm also against displaying pornographic materials on the street, on posters or in other public places (a specifically "Japanese" issue): I don't think you should HAVE to see any pornography if you don't want to. But I'm against the censorship of certain types of media that I find personally distasteful.

Aleister Sithis

I've been wanting to post in this for a bit, but...reluctant to do so. Anywho....

Basically...we all have our fetishes, sexual deisres, much like tsurara said; it's there and people enjoy it. To me it doesn't overly appeal to me, but to someone out there it does. And as Abby said, the concept seems...well...enjoyable for the ability to over-power. I can see where Abby goes on this, majority I know LOVE to dominate and all that, while I'm the submissive guy-type. I also can see why people would dislike it, but I don't see t as a reason to hate someone for it (Not tryiing to imply you HATE the people who do it, but still just saying). It'd be like hatng someone for being "White", "black", etc.

Hell, look back in days before ours where marrying a 13 year old was legal (Just bringing forth past comparisons) and other "taboos" that tsurara stated, look how acceptable some have become. Also Sadomasochism, that can be as much as a taboo as child pornography to some, as well as Bondage; Which brings me to what I first said, we all have our pleasures. Best leave them be I say, not that humanity will learn tht any time soon.

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Shodokan

When straight guys jerk off to pictures of women they want to have sex with women, when gay guys jerk off to gay porn they want to have sex with other men and when people jerk off to pictures of naked pictures of children real or imagined they want to have sex with children.

I don't care child porn even if it's animated is wrong and it should be illega

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cookiemonster

OK here is my viewpoint on this subject. Lolicon and Shotacon pornography is wrong, but If done in a tasteful way (ex. non-explicit/adult) it can be cute, examples of good loli/ shotacon is card captor sakura and negima. I can understand the reasons why people would want to see what they wish to see but some things should be kept a secret and DEFINITELY not acted upon!!!!!!

this is my viewpoint when i see pornography, i want something to look at! Even then i don't like full nudity i like a little imagination!

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“Keiichi,” Belldandy breathed. “If anodder wooma luuksh at you, I’ll sheal her in a Happy Meal bocksh!”

zyta

Both don't really bother me, at all. It happens. Hell, I have a Lolicon thing, it is more then half the reason why I watch what I watch. As for reducing the amount of sexual crimes out there, all I can say is that is a double-sided sword.

In one case the older individual may get just what they desire from Anime, Dating Sims, Hentai, H-Games, anything of the sort and be happy with those alone. Another person may be fed on those for years and then suddenly find that he/she has a sudden urge for real flesh and find that they are unable to supress such urges. Sometimes they are caught, thrown in jail and restricted living after prison, other times they get away with it time and time again.

I'll be honest, I see MOST highschool girls differently these days. There's nothing wrong with that, I'm more then other in control of myself to attempt anything; I wouldn't even know what to do even if i did.

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atomik_sprout

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tsurara

You fail at defining the genre. Just because something features a child doesn't mean it was designed to appeal to adults who fetishize children. Card Captor Sakura was a show for little girls. It's no more lolicon than "Dora the Explorer"