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Thread: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

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    God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    This thread is meant for only those with superior intellectual debate skills among all AO members, because this debate is very hard for some to fully understand, making them uncapable to debate among the others.

    For those who wants to go ahead and debate this please read everything carefully.

    God or Blind Nature?

    God or Blind Nature is the name of the whole debate, but the debate is so huge that its broken down into 4 sections which I will make into 4 different threads starting with the first section, therefore the first debate thread of God or Blind Nature, Mind vs Will.

    The basic questions to this debate are;
    1)What sort of entity is the human mind?

    2)Also, what is freedom of the will, and do human beings have such freedom?
    Determining the correct answers to these questions is crucial for determining which of naturalism and theism is more credible.In order to introduce our first debate, I will briefly explain why......again please read carefully!
    According to theism, God, who is or at least has an immaterial mind, created the physical universe for one or more good reasons. This implies that mind preceded matter, that teleological and more specifically personal explanation is fundamental, and that acts of will, in God's case at least, do not involve physical causation. Thus, on the assumption that theism is true, it would not be surprising to discover that human minds are also immaterial and that these minds are also capable of making free choices that are removed from the nexus of physical causation. Indeed, theism appears to entail that human beings have such radical freedom since otherwise God would be blameworthy for the morally bad choices that humans perform, which conflicts with God's moral perfection. Suppose, on the other hand, that naturalism is true and hence that matter both preceded and produced mind. Then one would expect to discover that human minds and acts of will, like other concrete entities with which we are familiar, have physical causes and are themselves physically realized.

    So the controversial issue in this first debate is not so much whether facts about human minds and wills provide crucial evidence. Rather, the controversial issue is what exactly those facts are?

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    I beilive God created nature, and everything that it does, then gave us the gift of Free Will with in the limits of our physical world (Free Will doesn't give us the ablity to fly, so gravity still works).

    The point is rather moot to me.

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    Quote Originally Posted by aceman67 View Post
    I beilive God created nature, and everything that it does, then gave us the gift of Free Will with in the limits of our physical world (Free Will doesn't give us the ablity to fly, so gravity still works).

    The point is rather moot to me.
    U failed to anwser what sort of entity is the human mind?
    and what free will means?

    The goal of this first debate is to find out which of naturalism or theism is more credible for accounting to our actions.

    For example; Andrew Melnyk argues that our minds are physical and that our wills are caused.. If he is right, then the facts support naturalism over theism. Stewart Goetz and Charles Taliaferro argue that our minds are immaterial and that at least some of our mental actions are uncaused. If they are right, then the facts support theism over naturalism. So who has their facts straight? And why?

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    How about this then? Our minds are our own to do with as we will. Our physical body's can influence us but that does not remove our free choice. No matter the tendencies the physical body/mind may influence us with in the end it is our choice whether to follow them.

    I would suggest that recent studies concerning the properties of the brain back this up. It has been discovered that people with similar beliefs or experiences have similar pathways in their brain but they have also found that those pathways can be created by our choices, actions, and experiences especially those that are reoccurring. As such we can then choose to create new pathways in our minds by choosing different or new actions and experiences.

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    Quote Originally Posted by aceman67 View Post
    I beilive God created nature, and everything that it does, then gave us the gift of Free Will with in the limits of our physical world (Free Will doesn't give us the ablity to fly, so gravity still works).

    The point is rather moot to me.
    I Believe There Is No God That Our Ancestors Created Them As An Image Friend As Children Tend To Do When They Are Lonely Or Need Someone To Rely On On The Subject Of Free Will I Believe Free Will Is Something We All Have It's Merely Choices At Our Own Discretion.

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna View Post
    How about this then? Our minds are our own to do with as we will. Our physical body's can influence us but that does not remove our free choice. No matter the tendencies the physical body/mind may influence us with in the end it is our choice whether to follow them.

    I would suggest that recent studies concerning the properties of the brain back this up. It has been discovered that people with similar beliefs or experiences have similar pathways in their brain but they have also found that those pathways can be created by our choices, actions, and experiences especially those that are reoccurring. As such we can then choose to create new pathways in our minds by choosing different or new actions and experiences.
    So u are suggesting that our minds is what causes our free will, and what decides what we do in our daily lives? Therefore suggesting that it is not our will that decides what we do..


    " it is not the mind nor will which chooses man's actions. these are merely man's capacity to act mentally and to choose those actions. the cause of man's actions....is man, as a minded, willing organism"

    A qoute from Roger Bissell that i lend more to than any other anwser to this topic.

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    Where is Kedar when you need him?

    Haha, my English may not be sophisticated, but I’ll try anyways.
    Apparently, the Universe was created out of nothingness, from a state where there was no time, no, energy, no matter and probably no “pitch black” colour. Then, a small substance of pure energy explodes and sends matter everywhere, allowing for the birth of our Universe [and other unknown phenomena] as we know it. There has to be something that was responsible for this.

    Now to the topic!

    We are made up of organs, tissues, cells and sub-atomic particles. All of the processes inside our bodies occur without our will. Our heart beats by itself; our brain thinks for itself, our tissues and bones heal by themselves. We are composed of independent parts which function by themselves. So who really are we? Are we just made up of blocks? What gives us the power to express our free will ... even when we don’t have full control of our minds?

    Apparently, we or our mind, conceives reality as an experience that can be felt, seen, heard; basically materialistic entities. A slap on our face would seem real. But suppose if you strongly believe that the slap will not hurt, would it?

    In my opinion, free will is non-materialistic. We and our mind are connected; however mind is an unstable and a very powerful tool. It wanders off carelessly but when we force it to focus on one spot, the result can be astonishing. Proof – martial artists, monks, meditation – catch my drift?

    As previously mentioned, we are made up of independent blocks of life. But what makes us whole is our soul. I know, some people are thinking “what’s with the randomness, we are whole, we just don’t know who we are” – ahh, the eternal question. A soul is the source of life. We have all the materials we need but are unable to create life, not like it was created anyway. Free will comes from our beliefs such as religion, our right, power, the desire to express ourselves, to open up, to live.

    What lies inside is both materialistic and immaterial. Inside our minds, there are thoughts, feelings, all generated by our brain. Our brain generates emotions because of our free will. Robots have intelligence, but do they have emotions? No. Plants are living things, do they have free will? I think not ... It's because they don't have a brain. Fish, animals, reptiles ... I believe they have free will because they have a brain/mind.

    What I'm saying is, the facts are in front of us. It is us that generate reality. Remember the classic test - is the glass half empty or half full? To truly understand the secrets of the unexplained, we must first try to understand ourselves and that can be achieved by harnessing our mind. I should know because I've tried.

    I know I strayed off the topic. Sorry.
    Last edited by Rave_Grip; Oct 13, 2008 at 06:38 PM.

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    Quote Originally Posted by anime_being_god View Post
    So u are suggesting that our minds is what causes our free will, and what decides what we do in our daily lives? Therefore suggesting that it is not our will that decides what we do..
    Let me rewrite that so it makes more sense:
    How about this then? Our intelligence are our own to do with as we will. Our physical body's can influence us but that does not remove our free choice. No matter the tendencies the physical body/mind may influence us with in the end it is our choice whether to follow them.

    I would suggest that recent studies concerning the properties of the brain back this up. It has been discovered that people with similar beliefs or experiences have similar pathways in their brain but they have also found that those pathways can be created by our choices, actions, and experiences especially those that are reoccurring. As such we can then choose to create new pathways in our minds by choosing different or new actions and experiences.
    Our will, our intelligence, is real and what we do is up to us. There is a physical mind and body that does and can influence us but it is our will our choices that ultimately effects our physical mind and determines what it is.

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