Anime Online
Home Forums Gallery Reviews RPG Arcade AO Magazine Links Rules / FAQ

Welcome to AnimeOnline.net, your personal Anime Community!

Anime Online Rulez!



Go Back   Anime Online > Mixed Flava > Debate and Discuss

Debate and Discuss The place for intelligent, heated discussions. Have something to discuss? Bring it up here and expect confrontation, but keep it civil, or else...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Oct 15, 2008, 08:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
Lady Barronmore
 
Arrianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,113
Thanks: 13
Thanked 67 Times in 55 Posts
Arrianna is making a name for themselvesArrianna is making a name for themselves
Credits: 48,396
Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

I would completely agree. Another thought. Just because we are incapable of measuring something mass currently does that mean it doesn't have any?
__________________

l Stone Hold l Now We're Cooking! l Thanks to Kaos for the awesome sig!
Status: Offline
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 16, 2008, 01:09 AM   #24 (permalink)
Agreement is just A Greed
 
Rave_Grip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Life is an illusion.
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rave_Grip may be famous one dayRave_Grip may be famous one day
Credits: 17,894
Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

Do you mean the gravitational field? Because we are able to measure it ...
Status: Offline
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 16, 2008, 08:52 AM   #25 (permalink)
AO Rebel
 
anime_being_god's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,775
Thanks: 23
Thanked 39 Times in 32 Posts
anime_being_god may be famous one dayanime_being_god may be famous one day
Credits: 8,945
Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoDeath90 View Post
i believe that naturalism is a more credible explanation due to the fact that i feel there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of a higher power. Because naturalism has proven facts about our brain i find its side of the spectrum to be more believable.
But before you say that, can all aspects of human experience find a coherent place within the naturalistic worldview? Meaning can everything that any human will go through in life be explained through the nature of this world alone?

Does Naturalism explain the consciouness experince and its place in nature?
Can consciouness even by explained as and entity all on its own?




Physicalism about the human mind is logically consistent with theism in my opinion. That's because, if mental phenomena are functional phenomena in the liberal sense of "functional", then they might be physically realized in the human case but nonphysically realized in the divine case.

However, physicalism about the human mind is still evidentially relevant to theism. The hypothesis of theism, as typically understood by philosophers, says there exists a special, nonhuman kind of person (God) who enjoys unlimited versions of the capacities to know, to love, and to decide to act that human persons possess. But since these capacities are mental, and since God is supposed to have no physical body or brain, the hypothesis of theism must say there exists a nonphysical and nonphysically realized mind. Which leads back to the immaterial and material brain, meaning again, i believe humans have both, and if humans have an immaterial mind as well, then naturalism just simply cant explain that. Since its not explained through the nature of this world.

Therefore my reason on theism over naturalism.
__________________

Status: Offline
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 16, 2008, 07:24 PM   #26 (permalink)
Lady Barronmore
 
Arrianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,113
Thanks: 13
Thanked 67 Times in 55 Posts
Arrianna is making a name for themselvesArrianna is making a name for themselves
Credits: 48,396
Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rave_Grip View Post
Do you mean the gravitational field? Because we are able to measure it ...
No I mean mass. If there is a currently unknown kind of mass that is so "light" we are unable to measure it at this time. I can believe that there are types of mass we cannot measure weight of yet still have an electrical field that can be. It could explain several types of supernatural (unexplained) phenomenon.
__________________

l Stone Hold l Now We're Cooking! l Thanks to Kaos for the awesome sig!
Status: Offline
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 17, 2008, 03:50 AM   #27 (permalink)
Agreement is just A Greed
 
Rave_Grip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Life is an illusion.
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rave_Grip may be famous one dayRave_Grip may be famous one day
Credits: 17,894
Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrianna View Post
No I mean mass. If there is a currently unknown kind of mass that is so "light" we are unable to measure it at this time. I can believe that there are types of mass we cannot measure weight of yet still have an electrical field that can be. It could explain several types of supernatural (unexplained) phenomenon.
Ahh, I see what you mean. It was previously thought that the electron was the lightest matter; however after Pauli's discovery of the "neutrino", which has almost no mass - thus it is almost massless. But it is released after an atom is split. But here's the thing, this particle is neutral [charge] and lack an electrical charge.
On the other hand, photon, in physics, is the elementary particle responsible for electromagnetic phenomena. But I don't see how "particles of light" would be responsible for the supernatural phenomenon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anime_being_god View Post
But before you say that, can all aspects of human experience find a coherent place within the naturalistic worldview? Meaning can everything that any human will go through in life be explained through the nature of this world alone?
In my opinion, yes. What happens to the world affects us, as we are born from the same elements of the earth and live on it.
Also, what happens in this world is responsible for the overall outlook of the humans on themselves, the future and ultimately life. Take the current events occuring in the world for example; we are being exposed to natural devastations, wars, murders, violence [idiot celebrities ...] and so on, on an almost daily basis. So it is possible to assume that our way of thinking and brain patterns would be affected. That's one way to look at it.
However, in my opinion it is upto the people themselves to change themselves, rather than relying on God for everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anime_being_god View Post
Does Naturalism explain the consciouness experince and its place in nature?
Can consciouness even by explained as and entity all on its own?




Physicalism about the human mind is logically consistent with theism in my opinion. That's because, if mental phenomena are functional phenomena in the liberal sense of "functional", then they might be physically realized in the human case but nonphysically realized in the divine case.

However, physicalism about the human mind is still evidentially relevant to theism. The hypothesis of theism, as typically understood by philosophers, says there exists a special, nonhuman kind of person (God) who enjoys unlimited versions of the capacities to know, to love, and to decide to act that human persons possess. But since these capacities are mental, and since God is supposed to have no physical body or brain, the hypothesis of theism must say there exists a nonphysical and nonphysically realized mind. Which leads back to the immaterial and material brain, meaning again, i believe humans have both, and if humans have an immaterial mind as well, then naturalism just simply cant explain that. Since its not explained through the nature of this world.

Therefore my reason on theism over naturalism.
No one has seen God and the only possible way to see him, or Her, is to die. So all we can do is to believe that he exists as energy and energy is everywhere.
Do you know something that can travel faster than the speed of light? It is your mind.
As for the conciousness, it is what makes us ... us. We have it, animals have it and even plants have it. If it were to be absent, life would have wandered off and the humans would have collapsed under their own lack of "rightness".
There is always a "voice" inside of us that tells us whats right and whats wrong [and most of us are able to listen to it.] I would say our conciousness is just like our soul; a non-material entity that is present [as long as we are alive I guess].
Humans do have a material mind, it is just the way it percieves reality. Such as walking over broken glass, eating fires and so on explains that it is your beliefs that are ultimately responsible for your actions, way of thinking and your own "reality". The only immaterial entities are - our will, soul and inner conciousness.

Last edited by Rave_Grip; Oct 17, 2008 at 04:14 AM.
Status: Offline
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 17, 2008, 10:23 PM   #28 (permalink)
AO Rebel
 
anime_being_god's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,775
Thanks: 23
Thanked 39 Times in 32 Posts
anime_being_god may be famous one dayanime_being_god may be famous one day
Credits: 8,945
Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rave_Grip View Post
Ahh, I see what you mean. It was previously thought that the electron was the lightest matter; however after Pauli's discovery of the "neutrino", which has almost no mass - thus it is almost massless. But it is released after an atom is split. But here's the thing, this particle is neutral [charge] and lack an electrical charge.
On the other hand, photon, in physics, is the elementary particle responsible for electromagnetic phenomena. But I don't see how "particles of light" would be responsible for the supernatural phenomenon.


In my opinion, yes. What happens to the world affects us, as we are born from the same elements of the earth and live on it.
Also, what happens in this world is responsible for the overall outlook of the humans on themselves, the future and ultimately life. Take the current events occuring in the world for example; we are being exposed to natural devastations, wars, murders, violence [idiot celebrities ...] and so on, on an almost daily basis. So it is possible to assume that our way of thinking and brain patterns would be affected. That's one way to look at it.
However, in my opinion it is upto the people themselves to change themselves, rather than relying on God for everything.



No one has seen God and the only possible way to see him, or Her, is to die. So all we can do is to believe that he exists as energy and energy is everywhere.
Do you know something that can travel faster than the speed of light? It is your mind.
As for the conciousness, it is what makes us ... us. We have it, animals have it and even plants have it. If it were to be absent, life would have wandered off and the humans would have collapsed under their own lack of "rightness".
There is always a "voice" inside of us that tells us whats right and whats wrong [and most of us are able to listen to it.] I would say our conciousness is just like our soul; a non-material entity that is present [as long as we are alive I guess].
Humans do have a material mind, it is just the way it percieves reality. Such as walking over broken glass, eating fires and so on explains that it is your beliefs that are ultimately responsible for your actions, way of thinking and your own "reality". The only immaterial entities are - our will, soul and inner conciousness.

But wouldn't it mean that if we humans have an immaterial mind as well as and material, how does naturalism explain that? Remeber its has to be explained through the nature of this world.
__________________

Status: Offline
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 18, 2008, 01:10 AM   #29 (permalink)
Agreement is just A Greed
 
Rave_Grip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Life is an illusion.
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rave_Grip may be famous one dayRave_Grip may be famous one day
Credits: 17,894
Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

Hmm, the nature of this world has got nothing to do with our mind being materialistic or non-materialistic. What the nature of this world has to do with is how it creates life, nurtures it and how well the cycle continues. But nature and life is another topic.

Humans have a materialistic brain, or mind. The sub concious is hard to categorise because there is not much to be confirmed about it by science. However the people who are used to challenge their minds and experience the sub-con; can tell that their will [and the like] is immaterial.

We don't have an immaterial mind, the thoughts, feelings and the will that are triggered are non materialistic.

And now I wish Kedar was here
Status: Offline
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 24, 2008, 01:32 PM   #30 (permalink)
Hikikimori ja nai!
 
atomik_sprout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 2,115
Thanks: 62
Thanked 76 Times in 70 Posts
atomik_sprout is making a name for themselvesatomik_sprout is making a name for themselvesatomik_sprout is making a name for themselves
Credits: 125,968
Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrianna View Post
I'm afraid that is a modern myth, sorry.
snopes.com: Ten Percent of our Brains
K, I'm wrong about the ten percent idea. I'll admit that. ^_^

However, that doesn't disprove that there is a possibity of us being able to focus enugh energy to bend it to our will. It's still true that the atomic world is rather different than our own and God has very little to do with the manipulation of molecules, electrons and protons--in my opinion. If we could learn to harness the energy around us we could do anything. Adrenaline rushes are a good example.

A one armed woman with no physical training background is trapped in a fire with her three young kids and still manages to save them by carrying them out of the burning building. (Not a true story) Adrenaline gives us that extra boost of energy/strengh required to get us out of do-or-die situations. If we could harness energy similar to that nature--without the life or death situations--I could be blasting someone with a fireball or something. But that's just me talking out of my rear with my random theories. LOL.
Status: Offline
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 24, 2008, 03:32 PM   #31 (permalink)
Lady Barronmore
 
Arrianna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,113
Thanks: 13
Thanked 67 Times in 55 Posts
Arrianna is making a name for themselvesArrianna is making a name for themselves
Credits: 48,396
Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

True story, car rolls onto a little girl and her father lifts it off of her and pulls her out. Adrenaline can do a lot yes.

Nor was I saying ESP isn't real. Just that we don't have vast unused parts of our brain. Well... except for people who never use their imaginations.

The point is that we are only starting to understand such things. There is a lot of unexplained phenomenon that we may just clear up in the future including both electrical and subatomic. Some supernatural things may really just be simple unknown physics including the existence of "intelligence" separate from what we now consider a physical body.
__________________

l Stone Hold l Now We're Cooking! l Thanks to Kaos for the awesome sig!
Status: Offline
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 24, 2008, 07:18 PM   #32 (permalink)
Agreement is just A Greed
 
Rave_Grip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Life is an illusion.
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rave_Grip may be famous one dayRave_Grip may be famous one day
Credits: 17,894
Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

True story - My father lived in Japan for about 6 months [around 14 years ago], where he met a person who was diagnosed with [stage 4?] cancer. However, rather than giving up he had a strong will / desire to live and did regular excesices; and ended up beating the cancer. Short story but true
Therefore, the human mind has the potential or ability to "manipulate molecules, electrons and protons" alike [because even cancer cells are composed of those particles.]
Status: Offline
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nature Chaos105 Poems 3 Aug 10, 2007 12:19 PM
Halls of the Blind Takarako Poems 2 Oct 04, 2006 06:55 AM
Love Is Blind moongoddess The Chat Forum 2 May 03, 2006 11:21 PM
Human Nature? Zarriff The Vault 29 Aug 13, 2005 03:20 PM
Human Nature Sib The Vault 18 Jan 31, 2005 03:20 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:13 PM.


Manga Fox | Naruto Shippuuden | Anime Wallpapers | Ringtones | Anime Avatars | Wallpapers | Anime Girls | Watch Anime Online | Anime Buddy Icons
Anime Online Banners by fooligar. ©
This Anime skin cannot be reproduced on any website without written permission from the Anime Online Staff.
Ad Management by RedTyger

SEO by vBSEO

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114