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Thread: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    Quote Originally Posted by NeoDeath90 View Post
    i believe that naturalism is a more credible explanation due to the fact that i feel there is no way to prove or disprove the existence of a higher power. Because naturalism has proven facts about our brain i find its side of the spectrum to be more believable.
    But before you say that, can all aspects of human experience find a coherent place within the naturalistic worldview? Meaning can everything that any human will go through in life be explained through the nature of this world alone?

    Does Naturalism explain the consciouness experince and its place in nature?
    Can consciouness even by explained as and entity all on its own?




    Physicalism about the human mind is logically consistent with theism in my opinion. That's because, if mental phenomena are functional phenomena in the liberal sense of "functional", then they might be physically realized in the human case but nonphysically realized in the divine case.

    However, physicalism about the human mind is still evidentially relevant to theism. The hypothesis of theism, as typically understood by philosophers, says there exists a special, nonhuman kind of person (God) who enjoys unlimited versions of the capacities to know, to love, and to decide to act that human persons possess. But since these capacities are mental, and since God is supposed to have no physical body or brain, the hypothesis of theism must say there exists a nonphysical and nonphysically realized mind. Which leads back to the immaterial and material brain, meaning again, i believe humans have both, and if humans have an immaterial mind as well, then naturalism just simply cant explain that. Since its not explained through the nature of this world.

    Therefore my reason on theism over naturalism.

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    Quote Originally Posted by Rave_Grip View Post
    Do you mean the gravitational field? Because we are able to measure it ...
    No I mean mass. If there is a currently unknown kind of mass that is so "light" we are unable to measure it at this time. I can believe that there are types of mass we cannot measure weight of yet still have an electrical field that can be. It could explain several types of supernatural (unexplained) phenomenon.

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna View Post
    No I mean mass. If there is a currently unknown kind of mass that is so "light" we are unable to measure it at this time. I can believe that there are types of mass we cannot measure weight of yet still have an electrical field that can be. It could explain several types of supernatural (unexplained) phenomenon.
    Ahh, I see what you mean. It was previously thought that the electron was the lightest matter; however after Pauli's discovery of the "neutrino", which has almost no mass - thus it is almost massless. But it is released after an atom is split. But here's the thing, this particle is neutral [charge] and lack an electrical charge.
    On the other hand, photon, in physics, is the elementary particle responsible for electromagnetic phenomena. But I don't see how "particles of light" would be responsible for the supernatural phenomenon.

    Quote Originally Posted by anime_being_god View Post
    But before you say that, can all aspects of human experience find a coherent place within the naturalistic worldview? Meaning can everything that any human will go through in life be explained through the nature of this world alone?
    In my opinion, yes. What happens to the world affects us, as we are born from the same elements of the earth and live on it.
    Also, what happens in this world is responsible for the overall outlook of the humans on themselves, the future and ultimately life. Take the current events occuring in the world for example; we are being exposed to natural devastations, wars, murders, violence [idiot celebrities ...] and so on, on an almost daily basis. So it is possible to assume that our way of thinking and brain patterns would be affected. That's one way to look at it.
    However, in my opinion it is upto the people themselves to change themselves, rather than relying on God for everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by anime_being_god View Post
    Does Naturalism explain the consciouness experince and its place in nature?
    Can consciouness even by explained as and entity all on its own?




    Physicalism about the human mind is logically consistent with theism in my opinion. That's because, if mental phenomena are functional phenomena in the liberal sense of "functional", then they might be physically realized in the human case but nonphysically realized in the divine case.

    However, physicalism about the human mind is still evidentially relevant to theism. The hypothesis of theism, as typically understood by philosophers, says there exists a special, nonhuman kind of person (God) who enjoys unlimited versions of the capacities to know, to love, and to decide to act that human persons possess. But since these capacities are mental, and since God is supposed to have no physical body or brain, the hypothesis of theism must say there exists a nonphysical and nonphysically realized mind. Which leads back to the immaterial and material brain, meaning again, i believe humans have both, and if humans have an immaterial mind as well, then naturalism just simply cant explain that. Since its not explained through the nature of this world.

    Therefore my reason on theism over naturalism.
    No one has seen God and the only possible way to see him, or Her, is to die. So all we can do is to believe that he exists as energy and energy is everywhere.
    Do you know something that can travel faster than the speed of light? It is your mind.
    As for the conciousness, it is what makes us ... us. We have it, animals have it and even plants have it. If it were to be absent, life would have wandered off and the humans would have collapsed under their own lack of "rightness".
    There is always a "voice" inside of us that tells us whats right and whats wrong [and most of us are able to listen to it.] I would say our conciousness is just like our soul; a non-material entity that is present [as long as we are alive I guess].
    Humans do have a material mind, it is just the way it percieves reality. Such as walking over broken glass, eating fires and so on explains that it is your beliefs that are ultimately responsible for your actions, way of thinking and your own "reality". The only immaterial entities are - our will, soul and inner conciousness.
    Last edited by Rave_Grip; Oct 17, 2008 at 03:14 AM.

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    Quote Originally Posted by Rave_Grip View Post
    Ahh, I see what you mean. It was previously thought that the electron was the lightest matter; however after Pauli's discovery of the "neutrino", which has almost no mass - thus it is almost massless. But it is released after an atom is split. But here's the thing, this particle is neutral [charge] and lack an electrical charge.
    On the other hand, photon, in physics, is the elementary particle responsible for electromagnetic phenomena. But I don't see how "particles of light" would be responsible for the supernatural phenomenon.


    In my opinion, yes. What happens to the world affects us, as we are born from the same elements of the earth and live on it.
    Also, what happens in this world is responsible for the overall outlook of the humans on themselves, the future and ultimately life. Take the current events occuring in the world for example; we are being exposed to natural devastations, wars, murders, violence [idiot celebrities ...] and so on, on an almost daily basis. So it is possible to assume that our way of thinking and brain patterns would be affected. That's one way to look at it.
    However, in my opinion it is upto the people themselves to change themselves, rather than relying on God for everything.



    No one has seen God and the only possible way to see him, or Her, is to die. So all we can do is to believe that he exists as energy and energy is everywhere.
    Do you know something that can travel faster than the speed of light? It is your mind.
    As for the conciousness, it is what makes us ... us. We have it, animals have it and even plants have it. If it were to be absent, life would have wandered off and the humans would have collapsed under their own lack of "rightness".
    There is always a "voice" inside of us that tells us whats right and whats wrong [and most of us are able to listen to it.] I would say our conciousness is just like our soul; a non-material entity that is present [as long as we are alive I guess].
    Humans do have a material mind, it is just the way it percieves reality. Such as walking over broken glass, eating fires and so on explains that it is your beliefs that are ultimately responsible for your actions, way of thinking and your own "reality". The only immaterial entities are - our will, soul and inner conciousness.

    But wouldn't it mean that if we humans have an immaterial mind as well as and material, how does naturalism explain that? Remeber its has to be explained through the nature of this world.

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    Hmm, the nature of this world has got nothing to do with our mind being materialistic or non-materialistic. What the nature of this world has to do with is how it creates life, nurtures it and how well the cycle continues. But nature and life is another topic.

    Humans have a materialistic brain, or mind. The sub concious is hard to categorise because there is not much to be confirmed about it by science. However the people who are used to challenge their minds and experience the sub-con; can tell that their will [and the like] is immaterial.

    We don't have an immaterial mind, the thoughts, feelings and the will that are triggered are non materialistic.

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna View Post
    I'm afraid that is a modern myth, sorry.
    snopes.com: Ten Percent of our Brains
    K, I'm wrong about the ten percent idea. I'll admit that. ^_^

    However, that doesn't disprove that there is a possibity of us being able to focus enugh energy to bend it to our will. It's still true that the atomic world is rather different than our own and God has very little to do with the manipulation of molecules, electrons and protons--in my opinion. If we could learn to harness the energy around us we could do anything. Adrenaline rushes are a good example.

    A one armed woman with no physical training background is trapped in a fire with her three young kids and still manages to save them by carrying them out of the burning building. (Not a true story) Adrenaline gives us that extra boost of energy/strengh required to get us out of do-or-die situations. If we could harness energy similar to that nature--without the life or death situations--I could be blasting someone with a fireball or something. But that's just me talking out of my rear with my random theories. LOL.


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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    True story, car rolls onto a little girl and her father lifts it off of her and pulls her out. Adrenaline can do a lot yes.

    Nor was I saying ESP isn't real. Just that we don't have vast unused parts of our brain. Well... except for people who never use their imaginations.

    The point is that we are only starting to understand such things. There is a lot of unexplained phenomenon that we may just clear up in the future including both electrical and subatomic. Some supernatural things may really just be simple unknown physics including the existence of "intelligence" separate from what we now consider a physical body.

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    Re: God or Blind Nature? (Mind vs Will) 1st Section

    True story - My father lived in Japan for about 6 months [around 14 years ago], where he met a person who was diagnosed with [stage 4?] cancer. However, rather than giving up he had a strong will / desire to live and did regular excesices; and ended up beating the cancer. Short story but true
    Therefore, the human mind has the potential or ability to "manipulate molecules, electrons and protons" alike [because even cancer cells are composed of those particles.]

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