aceman67

So what you're saying is that there's no Free will (Freedom of choice)?

You're saying that the very corner stone of almost every single religion on the planet, including my own, and yours as well, is all an illusion?

You're treading into very deep "My personal beliefs are a sham" territory. You might want to re think your position a little bit.

The way I view god is a Loving Father, not some vengeful uncaring person. He created the world and everything that has ever been in or ever will be on it.

Before we came to earth, we knew everything he did. We knew exactly what our lives would be like as a result of all the choices (And all the results both sides of those choices) that we would ever make in our lives. We then made the choice to come to earth knowing full well what was coming our way, and we did it knowing that we wouldn't have the knowledge we had before we went.

If God's a loving father, and he wants us to return to him, why would he put us in a position where that would be impossible?

Enter Free Will, or the freedom to choose.

We forge our own destiny. We choose our paths.

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loknkey

If I truly have freedom, then I choose to go to heaven. If God is a loving father, then he should do what any loving father would do, and protect his children from harm. As to free will, I'm not sure how free it could be. If I had a mental illness, could I force my mind to be healthy? If I was drunk, could I force myself to be sober? Can I force myself to believe that my head is a pumkin? No. So apparently my mind isn't that free after all.

Alina sedai

I'm sorry i saw this and i had to respond to this person:
Children that are born Handicap or Disabled in anyway are born this way as a test. We believe (i am Jewish) that this world is not the end all be all. Olom Haba is "where its at" for lack of a better term. The World to Come. The Next World. For every good thing you do here you will be rewarded. People who did great things in this world, and yet lived poor lives where ultimately rewarded in the world to come where it matters.
To quote a favorite author of mine:
"this world is a dream from which we all must wake" (Robert Jordan)

G-d is not Evil. Unless you are satinistic (spelling?) and you believe in the devil as your god. But the God of the Major world religions is not. People have free will as has been stated before this.
If you claim that there is no free will then you are basically saying that you have no control over your actions. The all mighty "well, i didn't murder him! god made me do it!" Its a pathetic argument i am sorry.
If you choose to go left at a turn, and then you get to another turn and stop, G-d knows what will happen if you go right or left. He knows if you go left then hey your gonna die in a fiery car accident, but if you go right you will get home safe.
When i was a child i used to think "I'm gonna fake G-d Out I'm gonna run left and then quick turn right." Childhood fantasy. Almost every major religion i know of (correct me if i am wrong please) says that there is free will. you take that free will away...what do you have?

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loknkey

If God is not evil, please tell me why you think so. If there is free will, again, please share your reasons and evidence.

I'm not trying to dodge responsibility for my actions. As I said before, I'm only asking to hold God to the same standard. This is not to challenge God himself, but rather challenge the customary idea of God, and see how it holds.

aceman67

There are some things that simply cannot be proven with fact, but must be accepted on faith alone. Both me and Alina grew up in religious families, and I myself have spent many hours sudying religion in semenary classes. The things I've seen in my life, the kindness in people, the beauty of the world around me, the way a flower looks when it blooms for the first time, and warm feeling in my heart when I held my baby neice for the first time as she smiled and coo'd back at me, and I find myself not being able to accept god as anything but a loving father, not the thing that this thread is depicting him to be.

Are there things in this world that are bad? Yes, I cannot deny that. But the shear ammount of things that are good in this world far out number the bad, and should stand testiment contrary to the subject of this thread.

Also, lets take a look back in history. Adam and Eve supposidly lived around 5000 BCE (before current era), thats a long time for the beleif in a god to be around. Thats SEVEN milenia. Seven Thousand Years. Don't you think that something that has stood the test of time, while other belief systems like the egyptions, romans, greeks, bablyonians and many other systems have long since died out and only exist to us in history texts.

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loknkey

I see this beauty too. But I hesitate to accept things on faith alone, even nice ideas. You spoke earlier of responsibility. We should be responsible in forming our beliefs. Rather than resting on optimism, we should bravely accept the evidence, despite what it infers.

I'm not sure if good outnumbers bad, or if bad outnumbers good. Yet everything that is good, will be taken away, and death lasts forever. Hell lasts forever. The few that worship the right idea, will be given a cold victory.

As to the age of religions, Hinduism is the oldest surviving world religion. So if you believe that the truest religion must be the oldest one, then you must go with Hinduism.

This isn't meant to be morbid or depressing. This is merely a problem with the theology of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. If you don't believe in the theology, then it is not depressing at all.

aceman67

I don't belive in hell, least not the way most christian religions do. Hell for me can only be attained one way: Having a testimony of the existance of the Holy Ghost, then out righty denying it. And having actually felt the presence of the Holy Ghost, I know that to denounce it would be impossible, least for me.

To explain what the Holy Ghost is, he is our conscience. He helps us decide what is right or wrong. To put it plainly, I ask you this: Have you ever had to make a choice, and when you made it, you felt warm to the very core of your being and you knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that that choice was right?

That is the Holy Ghost.

To discribe hell for me would be this: If God is the bright center of the Universe, then hell is the farthest thing from it, where one would be in eternal darkness for all time till you simply cease to be.

Everyone will go to Heaven, even the lowest form of scum that has ever walked the face of the earth, you want to know why? Be cause Jesus Christ took upon himself all the sins of the world, all of them for everybody that has ever lived or will ever live, then he suffered for them in the Garden of Gethsemane, suffered so much that even Jesus, the son of God, asked why God had forsaken him, and then he died for the sins of the world on the Cross at Calvery.

Now with that said, I bet you that John 3:16 will have a whole new meaning for you.

Now, lets anilyze that passage for a moment.

Ok, God loves the world. He gave his only begotten to die for the sins of man kind. "GAVE", meaning not ordered. Jesus had to make the choice to do what he did, enter free will (Again). If you belive in him, you will not perish. Now, this death that is mentioned is not a physical death, but a spiritual death, and by spiritual death, hell, eternal damnation ect ect. "But have everlasting life." Meaning Your spirit will exist for eternity in heaven.

That is what I belive.

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loknkey

Not a bad set of beliefs. However, you must realize that your views aren't exactly in accordance to standard Christian doctrine. I'm also a little confused. If Jesus died for all sins, (thankyou very much) then why is it necessary to believe in him? Why is it that only Christians go to heaven, if Jesus died for the sins of all? And why does the Bible say that only a few will enter heaven? Not only this, but it also says that God chose these few before the creation of the world! That we do not choose God, but that God has chosen us! I've got more questions than you would probally care to answer.
The problem is that my conscience won't let me believe in God. The concept of hell is too apalling.

Scourge

So is the thought of the Hallocost was apalling as well but that happened and that was caused by us Humans, so the consept of if there is a Hell, really is not to hard to fathem.

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WE ARE NOTHING MORE THEN BROKEN MACHINES

Frozen Rose

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Alina sedai

The Jewish belief of Hell is different from most others. We believe that you make your own Hell. What could be one mans heaven could be, in fact, another persons hell. Say for example you hate loud parties. Hell for you would be a place with constant noise. We also believe that it takes a lot to go to hell forever. The max is around 40 days but 40 days can seem a lot in hell.

And yes its All about Faith. Not everything can be seen. Faith is what makes a religion. Although some Cults focus on "miracles" if miracles were in every day life, they wouldn't be special would they?

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