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Thread: Israel V.S Palestine

  1. #33
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    Re: Israel V.S Palestine

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna View Post
    Actually it is very likely considering the scandal that broke yesterday about the UN schools in Palestine hiring Hamas and Islamic Jihadists as teachers. Isreal hit one last week to criticisms only to have the connection proven. For some reason better oversight of hiring practices are being called for. Evidence is that Hamas and other such organizations have taken advantage of such UN organizations for years AND they make a practice of firing their rockets from places with not only large numbers of civilians but that will make Isreal look bad when they fire back. It is a common terrorist tactic they have been using for over 6 years now. Surely you have heard of it? It is a tactic so common now that the US military have named it ("shielding" I believe) and had to come up with new counter tactics to try and minimize the collateral damage. Hezbollah in Lebanon is famous for it. Hamas firing rockets from a UN warehouse is not only credible but par for the course these days.
    It was a warehouse packed with food supplies. Not a house populated by innocent bystanders. And even if we were to accept they were being fired upon from inside the warehouse. The Israeli retaliation to it was far from what anyone would call precision. They bombarded it with artillery. Did they even know if there were any UN workers on location or not?
    All I'm saying with that example is that the Israeli offensives have never been known to be very precise even though they should be very capable of making it so. Just this week I read a report that people are still busy clearing out cluster ammunition in the south of Lebanon.


    Since I am responding I would also like to comment on your earlier statement about Israel shutting Gaza off from everyone. Israel only shares one border with Gaza, Gaza also neighbors Egypt doesn't it? Yet last I heard that very Arabic/Muslim state had also closed its borders with Gaza because of the dangers there. Seems to me the problem with Gaza's isolation is Gaza itself.
    Why do you keep pointing to the neighboring Muslim countries? Just because the dominant religion in those countries is the same it doesn't mean anything more than that. Countries aren't suddenly best buddies because of that. Hamas isn't very well liked in the surrounding countries at all. Egypt in particular is weary of them, mostly because they fear Hamas might influence and radicalize Egyptians.


    Secondly your surgical, strategic strikes you want don't work if you need to go in and close up the afore mentioned tunnels being used to supply them with weapons do they? Sometimes you simply have to have people there on the ground to get the job done.
    I'm not talking about surgical strikes in the sense of long range attacks (though they surely can be used and are being used). I mentioned specialised forces. That also entails commando troops and whatnot.
    Not to mention you don't need a big offensive to close down tunnels.


    Broad military action or not they have made it very clear they are specifically after Hamas and while we are seeing calls for reprisals by the Islamic Jihadists and Al Quada we are not seeing similar reactions from the other Palestinian political parties from with Hamas wrested control of Gaza 2 years previously. The battle is Israel vs Hamas not Palestine as is obvious to anyone who bothers to actually read the facts.
    I bet it's a whole lot less obvious to the average Joe actually living there Arrianna. I have little doubt that getting rid of Hamas is exactly what Israel is trying to do, but I don't think they're being very successful at doing it.

    Your prediction is as valid as anyone's but if it does end up being useless it will be because they are pressured/talked into withdrawing without accomplishing their objectives.
    And it's pretty likely that's exactly what's going to happen. Just as it has happened many times before. I hope you're not thinking I'm supporting Hamas or anything like that. I just seriously question Israel's strategy in all of this. They already knew from previous experiences and common sense that other countries were going to start mounting the pressure on them to establish a truce. So in that sense they had to know their objectives were doomed from the start right?
    You seem to think it's a bad thing but that what organizations like the UN and a country like the USA in particular do. But that's what they do. Meddle with foreign affairs. For noble and a whole lot less noble reasons I'm sure. But that's how it is. And in a rapidly globalizing world. That isn't going to change.

    Let's look at it from an even darker angle for a minute. The next elections in Israel are in February. The opposition party Likud is doing better than the Kadima party in the polls. Maybe the timing of the offensive is related to that? A quick success would surely earn some extra votes wouldn't it?




    Quote Originally Posted by Scourge
    What are you talking about, you said that on your reply to my first post.

    "Well that certainly is a very one-sided explanation of the situation."
    That is what you said is it not?
    That was not about you as a person, it was my reply to your explanation of the situation. Are you denying that it was one-sided? You basically said Israel had done absolutely nothing wrong and that they were the poor victims of a terrorist group and are only trying to defend themselves.
    That is, in all honesty, a very one-sided look on the situation.


    Secondly I am not mad but shocked that you would predict/think that as it makes no sense what so ever as Israel has never made any action that could possibly bring about such a thought (Even a prediction is a thought process as I am sure you are aware of) my tone was that of surprise, not anger and I will admit that I was out of line and there for apologies.
    Why doesn't my prediction make sense? The same scenario has happened before. The superpowers of the world simply won't let them have their way.


    Here is another tidbit then that I hope will prove what I have been saying.

    NAZI ROOTS OF PALESTINIAN NATIONALISM
    Aaah, I'm happy to finally get some of that material you were talking about. (Although I'm not too sure about how unbiased and objective that site and material is. <_<)
    But it mostly says that certain people from North Africa and the Middle East collaborated with the Germans. Which isn't such a strange thing as people from all over the world did that. And what's a better chance of getting rid of a longstanding rival than supporting another group who's rapidly gaining power and wants to get rid of them too? Like I mentioned earlier. Antisemitism has existed for a very long time.

    The bottom line of what I wanted to show you is that saying something like "Palestinians have always persecuted the Jews and actually strongly supported Hitler" is a gross generalization. It would be the same as saying "Every German was/is a Nazi." or "Every Palestinian is a member and supporter of Hamas." or "All black people are thieves." etc. etc.




    TaurusDemon23 makes some valid points in my opinion. The way both parties are acting now will only drag them further down a downward spiral of violence.

    Oh and about the endangered species idea: I think measures like that have been made for certain tribes in the South American rainforest.

  2. #34
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    Re: Israel V.S Palestine

    Quote Originally Posted by Hassun View Post
    It was a warehouse packed with food supplies. Not a house populated by innocent bystanders.
    Which had evidently given refuge to hundreds of people according to the UN. I watched an interview with the UN representative about the bombing and he fumed about all the people that could have been injured. However when asked point blank whether or not it was true Hamas had used places like that before to fire from all he did was scream about how outrageous it was they fired on a UN compound; or in other words they don't care if Hamas uses their compounds and installations to fire upon their enemies but anyone who dares to fire back on UN property is the one in the wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hassun View Post
    Why do you keep pointing to the neighboring Muslim countries?
    It's called seeing the forest instead of the trees. It's my way of taking religion/Zionism out of the equation. Because people are not unbiased when discussing Israel I like to take a look at their enemies through others eyes in order to get a less radical view of what they are like. The point is that Hamas does not bear up well under any looking glass no matter which one it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hassun View Post
    I bet it's a whole lot less obvious to the average Joe actually living there Arrianna. I have little doubt that getting rid of Hamas is exactly what Israel is trying to do, but I don't think they're being very successful at doing it.
    Oh I don't know. It looks like they have managed to get most of their leaders. Some would say that is pretty successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hassun View Post
    You seem to think it's a bad thing but that what organizations like the UN and a country like the USA in particular do. But that's what they do. Meddle with foreign affairs. For noble and a whole lot less noble reasons I'm sure. But that's how it is. And in a rapidly globalizing world. That isn't going to change.
    On the contrary any country should meddle in the affairs of any other country that will impact their countries security or economic interest. National security is far more important then people gives it credit for. My problem with the UN is that it has been taken over from the inside by the very types of people it was created to protect the world from. The UN now is nothing more then a dictators club to move forward their political agenda against less powerful countries and they look away as others use their organization for their own purposes as long as it doesn't hurt them personally. Rampant corruption and constant grafting keeps me from being surprised by Hamas and Islamic Jihad planting teachers there, they probably have the best schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hassun View Post
    Let's look at it from an even darker angle for a minute. The next elections in Israel are in February. The opposition party Likud is doing better than the Kadima party in the polls. Maybe the timing of the offensive is related to that? A quick success would surely earn some extra votes wouldn't it?
    Possibly. They have also said they would like to be finished well before Obama's inauguration if Hamas can behave itself. Interesting yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hassun View Post
    But it mostly says that certain people from North Africa and the Middle East collaborated with the Germans. Which isn't such a strange thing as people from all over the world did that.
    I found the article very interesting. The point of it was exactly who those individuals were. No more or less then the ones responsible for setting policy and for leading others in the region. Sure it's no big deal if "Joe" down the street supports NAZI propaganda but if it is a state governor, federal cabinet member, or even the president himself?

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  4. #35
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    Re: Israel V.S Palestine

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurusDemon23 View Post
    I know this might be considered a "troll" response, but this is a troll with major hit die(If you never played D&D you'll never understand), dammit!

    If you think about it, aren't the Israelis getting dangerously close to being compared to those quintessential "villains" of World War 2 and their one time tormentors, the Nazis?

    I mean, they got the whole "lebensraum" thing down, needing more land for more jews, taking more and more Palestinian land for settlers.
    Then, they have their Warsaw Ghetto with the Gaza Strip, denying the people stranded in there(yes, I daresay stranded) of the basics with some flimsy excuse after another.

    Now, there's the obscene Palestinian body count during their latest round of "target practice".

    Next thing we know, there will be concentration camps full of Palestinians. Will the Israelis stop when they hit 6,000,000?

    If only there were that many Palestinians, huh?
    Ah, comrade, we meet again! To paraphrase the anti-Zionist (yay!) moderator Hassun here, "spot on"! I believe you have been doing your homework. If I am not mistaken, you have read or at least heard of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", yes?

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    Re: Israel V.S Palestine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mao View Post
    Ah, comrade, we meet again! To paraphrase the anti-Zionist (yay!) moderator Hassun here, "spot on"! I believe you have been doing your homework. If I am not mistaken, you have read or at least heard of the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", yes?
    Ho ho ho there, anti-Zionist? I do hope you were joking on that one.


    Not to reply to every single paragraph again (it's making posts far too long) I'll just make one global reply.

    Let's just see how the situation will unfold and if the attacks by Hamas have truly stopped for good. (That line about how they expect them to 'behave' was hilarious. )

    I'll leave the purpose, use and history of the UN undiscussed. It would lead us too far from the topic at hand.

    As for the Nazi related article. I hope you're not trying to find specific Arab-related faults in such a thing. The list of collaborating areas and people of high (political) standing during WWII is very long AND diverse.

    I don't understand much of the part about how you try to take religion/Zionism out of the equation though. Is what you're saying something like "since everyone's picking on Israel and their religion I'll just see all the Arabian countries around it as one big pile of Jew-hating Muslims who all band together"?

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    Re: Israel V.S Palestine

    Quote Originally Posted by Hassun View Post
    Ho ho ho there, anti-Zionist? I do hope you were joking on that one.


    Not to reply to every single paragraph again (it's making posts far too long) I'll just make one global reply.

    Let's just see how the situation will unfold and if the attacks by Hamas have truly stopped for good. (That line about how they expect them to 'behave' was hilarious. )

    I'll leave the purpose, use and history of the UN undiscussed. It would lead us too far from the topic at hand.

    As for the Nazi related article. I hope you're not trying to find specific Arab-related faults in such a thing. The list of collaborating areas and people of high (political) standing during WWII is very long AND diverse.

    I don't understand much of the part about how you try to take religion/Zionism out of the equation though. Is what you're saying something like "since everyone's picking on Israel and their religion I'll just see all the Arabian countries around it as one big pile of Jew-hating Muslims who all band together"?
    Your words betray your bias You should be proud to take a stand against Zionist imperialism.

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    Re: Israel V.S Palestine

    I've heard of "The Protocols",though I've never read it myself. I do understand it to be a hoax though.Still, It's a classic of anti-mason, Jew-haters everywhere.

    And for the record, I'm against any sort of tyranny that hinders humanity's soul and makes the world a shittier place for everyone else.

    Funny thing is, there's too many that want to be in charge of everything and everyone. Too many think they are better than everyone else and are "meant to rule".

    To all who have this mindset: Give it a ****ing rest already, dammit! No one will ever be powerful enough to truly conquer the entire world. Whatever strange force that works behind the scenes here has never allowed it, and never will. God, Providence, Karma, The Weirdness, The Collective Spirit Of The World.........Whatever it is just isn't having it.

    Peace to anyone who seeks it, no matter what color, creed, or sexual orientation they belong to. I toke my bowl of herbs in this spirit.

    Anyways, back on topic. I look forward to seeing how "Attempt # Umpteen for Peace in the Middle East" will go. Will it be an actual breakthrough, or will it just be another failure? I almost want to start a betting pool on it. Almost, lol.

  8. #39
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    Re: Israel V.S Palestine

    Quote Originally Posted by TaurusDemon23 View Post
    I've heard of "The Protocols",though I've never read it myself. I do understand it to be a hoax though.Still, It's a classic of anti-mason, Jew-haters everywhere.

    And for the record, I'm against any sort of tyranny that hinders humanity's soul and makes the world a shittier place for everyone else.

    Funny thing is, there's too many that want to be in charge of everything and everyone. Too many think they are better than everyone else and are "meant to rule".

    To all who have this mindset: Give it a ****ing rest already, dammit! No one will ever be powerful enough to truly conquer the entire world. Whatever strange force that works behind the scenes here has never allowed it, and never will. God, Providence, Karma, The Weirdness, The Collective Spirit Of The World.........Whatever it is just isn't having it.

    Peace to anyone who seeks it, no matter what color, creed, or sexual orientation they belong to. I toke my bowl of herbs in this spirit.

    Anyways, back on topic. I look forward to seeing how "Attempt # Umpteen for Peace in the Middle East" will go. Will it be an actual breakthrough, or will it just be another failure? I almost want to start a betting pool on it. Almost, lol.
    No, the Zionists wish you to believe that it is a hoax so that they can carry out their plans unopposed. As one of your Western philosophers puts it, "One of the devil's greatest lies is to make people not believe he exists." Do you not think that the Zionists are doing likewise?

    Middle East peace cannot be possible as long as your western media propagates outright lies such as these:









    Do not believe these lies. They only wish to make Arabs look bad.

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    Re: Israel V.S Palestine

    *shrug* What's funny is that the "Nazi" salute was a roman salute in the first place. The Nazis were an attempt at a remake of Rome, or at least a Germanic Rome.....

    "The Protocols" was a strange bastardization of an old, early 1800's commentary on Napoleon's megalomania. It was rewrote by people until it took it's current, freemason-hating, jew-baiting form.
    It's kind of like the Bible, or the Koran, or any other holy book for that matter. Edited and edited until it says what their editors wanted them to, though completely unrecognizable to what was wrote in the first place.

    It's all lame propaganda to me.

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