Hassun

That's not really true though. It's biblical apocrypha. Although the Dead Sea scrolls seem to mention her.

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Chiefblackhammer

Nope, I am very much right, I used only Bible to refer to Bible concepts. You see what you said, while interesting, has a large flaw in that Lilith is not mentioned in the Bible…anywhere The Lilith lore (that she was Adam's first wife) was a Babylonian rouse to trash the Judean faith while the Jews were under their occupation. Like most conquering cultures they take the negative aspects of their culture and place them into the captives in an effort to demolish their faith, I mean you don’t think they just happened to use a creature commonly referred to as a demon do you?

Now to rehash that, Lilith is a mythological reference to folklore of the Mesopotamian people (Gilgamesh anyone?) and more explicitly as it relates to the Jews, the Babylonian Empire folklore.

I prefer to keep Biblical matters separate than those of Middle Eastern mythology. Lilith being a Babylonian myth, as stated earlier, only carries merit within Judaism by the fact that Babylon conquered the Assyrian empire which had previously conquered the Jews.

Much like the numerous times the Jews were occupied or living in others land, they adapted parts of the local lore in their culture but NEVER in their faith. Thus the folklore of a mythical beast named Lilith carried on in Jewish folklore but was never incorporated into any element of their actual faith much like all the rest of the lore they were exposed to over their history.

The only real argument for a reference in the bible to the myth is actually referring to the destruction of Babylon in the book of Isaiah chapter 34. The KJV verse 14 translates the passage as a “screech owl” but if you read the entire chapter you can see that the KJV translators used a lot of colorful discriptions to describe the fall of Babylon including references to owls, dragons, etc…This passage was merely meant to show the Jew’s God would over through the mythical creatures of all other relgions including those of Babylon (Might I add Babylon is also mention in line with the great whore and the serpent in Revelation).

You can also argue the Dead Sea Scroll references to Lilith but they are a bunch of “songs” (Lilith is mention in the Song for a Sage) with no established writer and just happen to be full of mythical references to lore of old. Thus they have no more merit on actual happenings within the Jewish history than if I were to liken them to modern times…say “puff the magic dragon” anyone?

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GallComp

Just remember that the bible is a highly edited set of books with persons (not gods) deciding what should be included in it, so Folklore was inded excluded and included in the current bible...

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Hassun

Of course. But then again, the story of Lilith is in none of the most known bibles.
It's completely non-canonical.

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Chiefblackhammer

Depends on how you want to look at it, most Bible believers have the faith that God, as truly the embodiment of God and in all his power is very much capable of taking those "men" who edited, translated and wrote the Bible and inspiring them to write ONLY the things God wanted us to know and follow. Keeping them from interjecting any flaw what so ever into the work. You can argue that is bogus but then neither you nor I have any proof one way or the other.

I mean for all anyone knows it is just a bunch of stories, or it could be the true words of God. That is where belief and faith come in...or the lack there of.

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GallComp

Because someone decided to exclude it, not because it has less value than the ones included in the different versions of the bible. The fact is that there is no single thruth, someone follow and believe what is wrote in current bibles, and someone may not and look beyond that either for reference or believe...

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Hassun

Of course there's never absolute security but the truth is that many aspects of the bible and especially the angels/demons are all artists' inventions.
Like the whole origin of the devil. Fallen angel etc. Nowhere to be found in the bible. All Christian inventions.
According to the Hebrew bible he/she/it is even a normal angel.

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Arrianna

Oh for... Shodokan do you really feel the need to spew your dislike of others so much you need to create a whole thread just to try and demonize one group?

Don't be absurd. Of course it isn't evil any more then the lovely people from the local Hispanic Christian church nearby are when they ask if I would like to go to their religious concerts. Be thankful someone think you are important enough to care about. After all if anyone's faith includes a belief that actions in this life effect your condition in the next to not try and share it with others means that they don't care what happens to you. Just be flattered and politely tell them no.

About Lilith: Good luck arguing that one. Not even scholars that believe in apocrypha can agree where that legend comes from. Ironically the Jewish Mysticism that is supposed to give it credence was apparently created in the 12th century. Since discovering that a good number of the wittings used to back up the Lilith legends were forged at that time I have had a healthy skepticism about the entire thing.

Now isn't that all more then a little off subject?

From the Old Testament where most of the prophets had more then one wife and there were laws in Deuteronomy 21 concerning having more then one wife. So yes, there is a basis for church law concerning having one wife (or husband ) obviously however God makes an exception when necessary. We discussed this slightly in the other thread. If you want specifics feel free to PM me. I'm afraid neither side can be proven from the Bible however since for every verse you can give me against I can give you 3 or 4 for. Personally I believe that they are all correct and merely need to be taken in context depending on the commands of God through his prophets.

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tsurara

As there are no pre-Westernization Aztecs around to ASK this particular question, the question of their intent is rather up in the air. Though if you follow every written, verbal and painted record they left: they were not believers in Christianity. To believe that they were awaiting a caucasian Jesus is pretty silly (and likely Christians/Caucasians projecting their own hopeful scenario onto something easily explained otherwise).

Remember that we see things through the glasses of our own cultures and beliefs. To us, an image may mean one thing: to it's authors something else entirely. Look at anime. How many times have people asked "Why are the characters all caucasian? Do they want to be white or something?" In reality, 97% of them are not. We expect "Japanese" characters to have slanted eyes, dark hair and short statures... the Japanese themselves don't need this distinction (and in fact, often find it insulting). So anime characters may look "caucasian" to us... when in reality: they are stylized to be more colorful and expressive.

As for Quetzcoatl appearing caucasian in artwork... I can't seem to find any to support this claim.

Usually he's depicted like this (a serpent with feathers): http://www.talariaenterprises.com/images3/6069b.jpg
How something with no traditional human form can be mistaken for "caucasian" is beyond me.

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GallComp

Edit: Arriana I'm not talking about your post, I jsut wanted to get into the topic...

There is no evil in religion. The evil come from the people that fanatize their religious beliefs, taking extermist approachs is what has made religions so hated. Chatolics in the past comit horrendous crimes in the name of their beliefs against those who didnt share the same toughts, namely the inquisition. So does this make Chatolisism evil, no of course not, evil are those who took the teachings of the religion to the extreme and murdered innocent people in the name of god.

Salem's witch hunt is even a worst example, accusing members of the same community and religion of witch craft for the smallest act and killng them in the name of god.

Calling mormons evil just because they knock on your door is something really stupid and closeminded, shouldnt you know more about your religion first before accusing others. Oh and I do know about different religions, I dont practice or follow any religion byt I do like to read about them...

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atomik_sprout

*stands up and claps* Hammer just broke it down on ya! LOL. Okay, enough instigating. ^_^

If ya wanna continue on this subject: Lilith is known across the world as one of the first succubus to grace the face of the earth. She stole the hearts and souls of men through sexual activity. And like Hammer said, came from Babylonian myth and spread through the mideval ages. It's totally not biblical at all.

Edit: Moved Back to correct subject - Chiefblackhammer

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