Thread: Polygamy in Mormonism

Originally Posted by chiefblackhammer

Why hide such a conversation? I know you won't take offense to my words and I am sure there are those on this board who would love to benefit from such a religious conversation.

Perhaps but this is not the thread for it. I was simply suggesting we take the conversation elsewhere.

As for the quotes you give you skipped the verses 10-14 that deal with one of the ways to take more then one wife. This is from a section of the Bible that IS the law of the Jews. It includes an entire chapter just to who you cannot have sex with or marry yet does not once mention restricting the number of wives. Laws set by Moses himself. Laws that include the rule that should Israel ever have a King he is not to have more then one wife but fails to restrict anyone else. The absence speaks volumes.

Nor have you addressed the number of Prophets with more then one wife in the Old Testament. Answer the reason for that or we are doing no more then what I suggested would happen before. The Bible by itself cannot be used as a source to condemn plural marriage. There are too many examples for and against with no defining scripture as to when which is appropriate.


@ketaro: It wasn't the Aztecs you are thinking of. The legends are what remained of previous legends from previous civilizations. The Aztecs only existed from the 12th to 15th century. The visitation you are speaking on was supposed to be a good thousand plus years before that.


@GallComp: no problem.

Originally Posted by Arrianna

Perhaps but this is not the thread for it. I was simply suggesting we take the conversation elsewhere.

As for the quotes you give you skipped the verses 10-14 that deal with one of the ways to take more then one wife. This is from a section of the Bible that IS the law of the Jews. It includes an entire chapter just to who you cannot have sex with or marry yet does not once mention restricting the number of wives. Laws set by Moses himself. Laws that include the rule that should Israel ever have a King he is not to have more then one wife but fails to restrict anyone else. The absence speaks volumes.

Nor have you addressed the number of Prophets with more then one wife in the Old Testament. Answer the reason for that or we are doing no more then what I suggested would happen before. The Bible by itself cannot be used as a source to condemn plural marriage. There are too many examples for and against with no defining scripture as to when which is appropriate.

What need is there to take it elsewhere? Is not the discussion of the beliefs of Mormons relative to the goodness or evilness of them? I mean what makes someone good or evil is it not anything more than his or her actions and beliefs? That is even from a sociological viewpoint, however I can create another thread if people think there is some real discussion on the goodness or evilness outside of beliefs and actions.

The absence of a law that prohibits polygamy does not mean it is ok, and why would Moses need to restate what God had already said in Genesis 2:24 anyway?

Now lets see...verses 10-14 you say...I read the whole chapter before I responded but only included the verses I felt relevant to the subject. After reading it again I still fail to see what you are saying.

10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

The only thing I see here is if a man wanted a wife out of the captives then he could have her. NO where does it say or even hint that the man already had a wife, and it did not say he could take wives, it said wife...in fact everything in those verses is singular...so what is it that is in these verses that I missed? Where is the way that allows more than 1 wife?

While I find it a little unfair to have to address all the prophets of the Old Testament with NONE provided as polygamist, let me address as many as I can think of (at least all the major ones) and I may through in some people who just held important rolls as it isn't always clear who is considered a prophet.

Adam: had one wife, Eve [Genesis 3:20]
Cain: had one wife, [Genesis 4:17]
Moses: had one wife, Zipporah [Exodus 2:21]
Isaac: had one wife, Rebekah. [Genesis 24]
Job: had one wife [Job 2]
Noah: had one wife [Genesis 7:7]
Isaiah: not mentioned, however Isaiah 8:3 refers to him “knowing” a woman and that is presumed to be his wife.
Jeremiah: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Ezekiel: had one wife [Ezekiel 24:18]
Daniel: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Nathan: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Hosea: Had one wife [Hosea 1:3]
Joel: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Amos: Had one wife [Amos 7:17]
Obadiah: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Jonah: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Michah: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Nahum: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Habakkuk: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Zephaniah: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Haggai: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Zechariah: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Malachi: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Elijah: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.
Elisha: not mentioned, no reference for a wife.

I know that isn’t all the prophets or major people but I couldn’t find any of the Major Prophets that had more than 1 wife…maybe you could provide reference to such? I would like to address them in context of actual scripture if possible.

However I have already addressed it on a general scale:

SIN is sin and just because someone who was a predominate figure in the bible did it doesn’t mean it is right or that God condoned it, God allows those actions to show the problems they cause in their lives as an example of what NOT to do in ours. Nothing more.

I see no reason why the act of having more than 1 wife would constitute a rule for it being “ok” in God’s eyes. Is it true that God gives us all things and thus multiple wives is in a way a gift of God, sure…does that mean he purposed more than 1 for us or that it is ok in his eyes, no. We have free will and God will allow us to make stupid mistakes under the pretense that what we do can be sin and we should know better.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Originally Posted by chiefblackhammer

What need is there to take it elsewhere? Is not the discussion of the beliefs of Mormons relative to the goodness or evilness of them? I mean what makes someone good or evil is it not anything more than his or her actions and beliefs?

Then your entire argument is inherently flawed. Would you argue the right or wrong of Muslim beliefs without taking the Koran into account? Yet you wish to prove the right or wrong of LDS beliefs by only using the Bible or half of our scriptures.

You provide a long list (that I am too tired to check for accuracy) but leave out several important people, most notably Abraham and Jacob/Israel, nor do you address the fact that God did restate everything in the laws. He took the time to tell them not to have sex with sheep yet can't make one statement not to have more then one wife? You're earlier point correctly shows that it was not approved for church leaders to have more then one spouse at that time in the New Testament but does not explain the discrepancy between then and before. That is the discrepancy I am pointing out and you have yet to give a reason for it substantiated by scripture rather then conjecture.

It is not a discrepancy that bothers me however since in the LDS church we have additional writings by other Prophets that substantiate and clarify these things that are not completely clear in the Bible. Another Testament that supports the Bible and makes obscure things plain. The practice of multiple wives is one of these. I quote:

Jacob 2:25-30

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Quite clearly by that it is only alright to have more then one spouse when God has commanded it for the purpose of raising up "seed unto" him. This completely clears up the confusion about the difference between the Old and New Testament. In the Old Testament the Children of Israel had been chosen to raise up seed to him even if it meant taking wives from those they had captured in battle. By the time of the New Testament however things had changed. There, no problems, no conflict.

For God is a God of order.

Now if you want to know why God may have given that command through his Prophet to the early LDS feel free to go to the previous thread to read up on the situation at the time. If you want to continue to discuss the right or wrong of LDS beliefs based on scripture I will be happy to do so using all our scriptures. Fair is fair after all.

--EDIT--

Specific Post pertaining to the topic: Whats the Deal with the Mormon Religion? ~ Aceman67

Originally Posted by Arrianna

Then your entire argument is inherently flawed. Would you argue the right or wrong of Muslim beliefs without taking the Koran into account? Yet you wish to prove the right or wrong of LDS beliefs by only using the Bible or half of our scriptures.

My argument is flawed? Don’t take what I have said out of context. NO where did I ever say you couldn’t use your scriptures ^_^

What I did say was that the only thing I could agree with was the Bible.

Originally Posted by chiefblackhammer

Secondly, I disagree with a lot of the Mormon ideals, it is hard to talk about them given the only support they have is Articles of Faith which I don’t believe in at all. So therefore the only grounds we equally agree on is the KJV Bible.

I merely mentioned that as a basis that it was going to be difficult to talk about the subject for me given I am not an authority on the Articles of Faith and I…do not claim validity in the words of them there in. Therefore I, meaning me, shall make no reference to your…other scriptures. So don’t tell me MY logic is off or that I have limited you in the conversation… that was your own doing.

But the use of the Articles of Faith seems unnecessary; didn’t you tell me you could give me 3-4 verses of the Bible for every one I could give you?

Originally Posted by Arrianna

I'm afraid neither side can be proven from the Bible however since for every verse you can give me against I can give you 3 or 4 for. Personally I believe that they are all correct and merely need to be taken in context depending on the commands of God through his prophets.

Did that change? Cause so far you haven’t given me any basis for Polygamy being Biblically correct. Or are you referring to the fact that the Articles of Faith support Polygamy and that is where you can hand me the scriptures?

Originally Posted by Arrianna

…You provide a long list (that I am too tired to check for accuracy) but leave out several important people, most notably Abraham and Jacob/Israel,…

Now, Abraham and Jacob/Israel…Yes I can see how I left them out, forgive me I only had to come up with the names of all the predominate figures in the Bible I could think of at 12ish in the morning ensuring I was covering all of the major and minor Prophets …(I did so because your argument was about Prophets having multiple wives…which you still haven’t named a one…as neither Abraham or Jacob/Israel were considered prophets in the Bible) while trying to support my claim through actual Bible verses but I have no issue addressing the above people. Name more if you like but I would pick better examples, those aren’t going to fair as hot as examples of the “rightness” of Polygamy.

I have said it twice now that just because someone had multiple wives does not mean it was God’s design or that it was sinless. I shall prove that God while he did not restrict them in their actions (the whole free will thing) he DID not support their cause and if fact they suffered because of it. Also the fact that God used them won’t work as an argument; God does not condone their actions in Polygamy. Did God not use both David and Solomon and there IS a clear verse in the bible stating that the King should only have 1 wife.

Abraham – God promised Sarai/Sharah (Abram’s wife) that she would bear Abram a child and the number of Abram’s seed would be the number of the sand by the sea. Did Abram heed this with Sarai? No and she sent him unto her handmaid to fulfill the promise of God that he would bring forth a great nation from Abram. Why? They got impatient and didn’t wait on God…hence they sinned and Abram took a second wife. Did God support this? NO, what happened 10 years later? In Genesis 17? God came back and said he would give Sarai a child and THAT child would bring forth a great nation. He only blessed Ishmael because of Abram’s sake. Now how did Ishmael’s seed work out for the Jews? A constant state of war and fighting over “who” has the true claim to God? Who “owns” the land Israel is on now? Yeah I can see how Polygamy worked wonders there.

Jacob/Israel – First he was charged by his father Issac to do the following:

Gen 28:1 And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. 2 Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother.

I would like to point out he was TOLD to take A wife, not wives…

But here a guy who had several wives, Leah, Leah’s handmaid Zilpah, Rachel and Rachel’s handmaid Bilhah. And they gave him 12 children, how did that work out for him…

But the important aspect is which of the children of Jacob did God use for the promised seed and others of importance?

Moses & Aaron – Both Levites and Levi’s mother was Leah - In fact, who were the priests of Israel? Was it not the whole tribe of Levi?
King David and the birth line of Christ? Tribe of Judah and Judah’s mother was Leah

Yes God did use Joesph…but where did that land them? In bondage of Egypt? For 400ish years? Yeah that doesn’t seem like a punishment at all.

Originally Posted by Arrianna

…nor do you address the fact that God did restate everything in the laws. He took the time to tell them not to have sex with sheep yet can't make one statement not to have more then one wife? …

God did not “restate” everything in his laws; he elaborated in more detail and brought forth new things he had not stated to that degree before. He established in Genesis 2:24 how marriage was supposed to be. The Judaic law was a clarification of how to act in accordance to things God had not told them before…he had already stated how marriage was supposed to be WHY rehash it?

Also don’t act like what is in Judaic law is the only guideline for how the people of Israel (or we) did and do act. The people of Israel treated all aspects of the old testament as something worthy to guide their life by, especially the Torah (first 5 books of the bible). Even more so for use New Testament people Paul tells Timothy that:

2 Timothy 3:16 KJV
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I do believe that a verse that is mentioned 4 times in the bible would carry a little wait no? And I think that would classify as a little more than just a mention.

Genesis 2:24
Matthew 19:5
Mark 10:7
Ephesians 5:31

Another verse, slightly different:
1 Corinthians 7:2
Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Still states wife and husband in the singular tense.

Originally Posted by Arrianna

You're earlier point correctly shows that it was not approved for church leaders to have more then one spouse at that time in the New Testament but does not explain the discrepancy between then and before. That is the discrepancy I am pointing out and you have yet to give a reason for it substantiated by scripture rather then conjecture.

First the church didn’t exist in old times and in accordance with how God does things, the guidelines for the leaders (which are applicable to the followers as well, God doesn’t have double standards) where established. Is that not happened when God created man, he established guidelines for marriage Genesis 2:24 and when he allowed Israel to have a King he established the guidelines for a King to only have 1 wife?

Why does it surprise you that he, being God would clarify how the leaders should act when he established something new based on the fact he did that every time before?

Also I have given numerous scriptures showing how God created, commanded and evidences his support of monogamy. The only conjecture is for that of polygamy based on your argument that some, rather a few, predominate figures in the Bible did it, which is the same logic as saying because someone prodiminate disobeyed God that makes it ok.

Originally Posted by Arrianna

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

Articles of Faith? I will also deal with Aceman’s statement in the other thread.

Where does it state that this “raising up seed unto me” …or even imply in that verse that it would mean it is ok to have more than 1 wife? YOU DON”T NEED MULTIPLE WIVES FOR MORE SEED!

Examples:
1) Abram, God promised him a “great” nation through Sarai of his "SEED"…God gave him gave him 1 child, Issac. God can sustain and multiple his people without polygamy and has done so for centuries.

2) Duggar family, here is a lady…1 lady with 17 children. Duggar family not stopping at 17 | NEWS.com.au Why is another wife necessary to have more children, and before you say well that is just one case…try the baby boomers? My grandmothers had 13 on one side and 9 on the other.

The church was way more heavily persecuted under the Roman's (Fox’s Book of Martyrs, and I am NOT making light of what happened to the Mormons, nor do I agree with what happened to them in Ace's post) and the use of polygamy was NEVER needed before to aid the church. In fact the more the Roman’s persecuted the church the more it grew, to the point the Roman’s abandoned their own faith and created the Roman Catholic Church in 333 AD. I see no valid point in the argument that it was needed to sustain the LDS.

Well, I appreciate that you made a new thread on the subject but I am afraid it may be short lived.

So far we have given various scriptures but I have no more then your opinion that Abraham and Israel taking multiple wives was a sin. No where in the Bible does it say that. It is also your opinion that the Laws in the Old Testament did not need to say that they should have only one wife. No where does it actually say that in the Old Testament again. You use the example of the rules for Priesthood leaders in the new Testament to back yourself up however there is an entire chapter in Leviticus that deals with whom the Priests of Israel can and cannot marry and that is not in there. Finally in Exodus 21 right after covering the 10 commandments (which includes "Thou shalt not kill" a command given previously but clearly restated) it deals with marriage including plural marriage (the rule being that if another wife is shown preferential treatment she may have a divorce). Basically your argument against polygamy being approved by God at that time is, "I don't believe it so anyone who did it was sinning". You can give me scripture before showing a preference for one wife and afterwards a guideline against it but not one scripture you have given me disproves that God approved plural marriage during the time of Abraham and through the founding of Israel. That is my point entirely but one I doubt you will grant.

Why haven't I given you 3-4 scriptures for every one? Because I don't believe in bashing for the purpose of arguing. "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." So I will apologize for the reference of vs 10-14, for it to make sense requires a cross reference that I am too tired and busy to spend 4 or 5 hours tracking down. Instead since you have titled the new thread "Polygamy in Mormonism" I will simply outline the cannon and how it came about then you may argue with someone else to your hearts content.

* * *

After the founding of the church the Church leaders were studying the Bible extensively even going so far as to hire a tutor to teach them Hebrew and other languages so they could read them in the original writing. In the process of their studies they noticed that there were many Prophets and important leaders, described as righteous men, who had multiple wives. So as you always should when confused, and after studying the subject thoroughly, they went to God and asked about "Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—". The answer was that God had appointed those marriages through his Prophet at those times and what God commands is Law. "38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me." So taking multiple wives is not a sin when God himself has sealed them to him.

In addition to this is the Book of Mormon which condemns the taking of multiple wives often yet also explains the only time there may be an exception to this. (again, Jacob 2:25-30)

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

This scripture not only compliments the earlier revelation but explains why "Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon", some of the greatest men of the Old Testament would have so many wives.

Along with the answer to the Church leaders question came the command for them to practice this as well. So it started slowly and by calling. Extensive rules were set down by revelation for how it was to be practiced including the requirement that the first wife approve of any additional marriages. It was not a large number that practiced it but it set the practice of plural marriage firmly in place at the time that it went from a command to a necessity. The church was persecuted and it's members hunted down and killed. At a time when 30% of the church practiced it only 2% of the men did and there were no single men wandering about for want of a wife. That should give you an idea of how many widows there were by the time the Church reached the Salt Lake Valley after being run out of their homes not once but twice. In time that changed, the need disappeared, and when the Prophet informed the church in 1890 that God had discontinued his command the majority of the church rejoiced. It was a hard thing to do and something that, like the New Testament church, is no longer acceptable and anyone found practicing it is excommunicated.

Some additional sources on the subject:
Glossary Definition, Polygamy (Mormon.org)
Polygamy: Latter-day Saints and the Practice of Plural Marriage

• Today Church members honor and respect the sacrifices made by those who practiced polygamy in the early days of the Church. However, the practice is outlawed in the Church, and no person can practice plural marriage and remain a member.

As an aside, polygamy is not part of the Articles of Faith:

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith