Religion, is it true? - Page 14

psychical · May 11, 2008, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basilisk888

the greek gods were never "lawful" they did all sorts of thing to manny people... (in the stories...) well do you call Pandora lawful?

Dude, considering that it was you who opened up this can of worms in the first place, you're not helping the discussion at all. We're not talking about Greek gods here. Besides,

they

don't

exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminous

If God has good intentions(If we assume that...), there are a number of ways in which this design is questionable. Life feeds off life to survive, a rather brutal aspect of nature, the universe is fairly unforgiving to life itself, given that Earth is really the only ideal location for any to exist. Weather like hurricanes routinely kill the innocent. Bears maul little children because they can. Nature is chaotic and unforgiving. Could I imagine a good natured God that would create a universe knowing that would happen? I could more easily imagine a good natured God that would create a universe, but did not concieve of stuff like Evolution and the brutal food chain that follows it(Like the guy who invented dynamite!). I know this idea is also contra to Omniscience, so maybe I'll stop here before I go too far again.

To sum up, if one were all powerful, they could do a lot better than this universe.

Oh, looking at the newer posts, I'd say you've got your work cut out for you. You know, you could introduce plenty of new points to the discussion all at once in a single post, and hope that you could stop the show using numbers, but it won't get you anywhere closer to understanding my side. Just the opposite -- you'd just be confusing you. But not me; this ain't a live debate, after all, we have all the time in the world. I'd be bewildered at first with what you throw at me, but at least you've given me lots to chew on in my spare time.

Are you willing to consider my side before arguing yours or not? If you interrupt me with further points, then you wouldn't be helping yourself. It's true that the more stones you use to build your fort, the stronger your position. The more shells you fire at the other guy's fort, the sooner you get to bring him down. But what applies in war doesn't work well entirely when it comes to serious discussion. You use force and deception to win in war. Unless you can manage to fool everyone, and keep them fooled for all eternity, either by force or persuasion, you can't win debates that way.

We ask questions not because we simply want to, or because we want to topple down the other guy with questions he can't answer all at once, but because we want answers that are true. Not just baseless speculation, or things that are candy to the mind, but what really is.

I want to hear what you think, one at a time, to make sure we don't overlook anything. So when I ask you a question, please answer it correctly as succinctly as possible. No new points until we resolve the issues we have at hand first. Capische?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminous

Anyways, that's all my input on the matter for now. I suffer from debate fatigue, and it doesn't take too long for me to stop wanting to debate, so I'll just be fading into the background again now, if that's all right.

I can't stop you, but you won't be helping yourself if you concede the argument this early.

Back to the discussion. Let's clear up a bit of confusion first. Since we've been discussing omnipotence, I assume that you've assumed with me, at least for the sake of the argument, that God exists, and that he is sentient, and powerful?

*kakashi_sensei* · May 11, 2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychical

Dude, so you're saying that

(a) The theory of evolution doesn't necessarily say there is no God,

BUT

(b) But the Bible says things in another way (that is, God created the heavens and the earth in a week's time),

THEREFORE

(c) The theory of evolution doesn't believe in a superior being... ????????

My apologies, friend, but your argument doesn't add up at all. Just because the Bible says things in another way doesn't mean that there is no superior being at all. I suppose you were being a bit too hasty there.

Here, let me help you with these two questions:

(1) Could you show me where exactly in his scientific books did Charles Darwin explicitly exclude the possibility of there being a God in his theory?

(2) Could it not be that the Jews of ancient times, not having any access to the scientific knowledge and advancements we have today, decided to explain the origins of the universe in parable form? (Recall that not everything in the Hebrew Bible should be taken literally... That was just the way people used figures of speech back in the day).

AH, there's too much to read

let me explain what i meant in a shorter version:
theory of evolution- we come from a long chain of....animals or whatever into what we are today.
Bible-GOD!!!!
That's all i know I'm not much of a reader so i won't really know what that guy Darwin wrote

One thing though, the bible was inspired by God and given by God so its not the jews fault that they weren't scientist and if the bible is wrong or not accurate then....i guess god is not perfect hahahaha

psychical · May 11, 2008, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kakashi_sensei

AH, there's too much to read

let me explain what i meant in a shorter version:
theory of evolution- we come from a long chain of....animals or whatever into what we are today.
Bible-GOD!!!!
That's all i know I'm not much of a reader so i won't really know what that guy Darwin wrote

One thing though, the bible was inspired by God and given by God so its not the jews fault that they weren't scientist and if the bible is wrong or not accurate then....i guess god is not perfect hahahaha

It would be a good idea if you know where you're coming from first. I'd be willing to talk about God and evolution with you, but I'd rather you understood what these two concepts are and how they relate to one another first.

If you're not much of a reader, and you haven't read what other people before you in time have said, how can you easily conclude that the Bible is wrong, and God isn't perfect? And with such feelings of certitude? Please, please, please read, even if you have to resort to Dawkins. You can always check Wikipedia if you absolutely don't want to read the originals.

*Arrianna* · May 11, 2008, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminous

I'm only asking him to help out with the dishes now and then. If someone is 6'7, and they are watching someone who is 4'5 trying to reach a high shelf for something, wouldn't it be nice if they helped out? Sure, the little guy probably has the capability, but I'm just talkng general niceness here.

...and he does individually. You just need to realize that God having a larger view of things ofttimes means that the problem itself will not be removed but that the help is in our ability to endure and grow from what happens. To use your own analogy rather then getting it off the shelf for us he either provides the step stool so we can reach it ourselves or tells us we shouldn't be getting it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminous

Fair enough, but I personally don't regard the act of watching people as an act of good. I see the logic of "Oh, lets see who cleans up this mess", but what if one of those kids takes too long and soembody dies? I know, I know, they'll go to 'heaven', but blah, if you're God and you think that's omnibenevolent, you might as well kill everyone.

How will they learn from their lives if they all just die? Sort of defeats the purpose of life doesn't it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminous

That makes sense, and that's precisely why I asked why bother with religion anyways. It's like "Be a nice person! If you're a nice person because I told you, you're a bad person! But be a nice person anyways!". Take out religion, and it becomes obvious who's being geneuinely naughty, and who's genuinely nice.

Not at all since we aren't omnipotent and can't tell why others are doing what they are ourselves. The non-existence wouldn't increase our ability to perceive that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminous

Ah, what I'm saying is, an omniscient being knows the future by definition, thereby eliminating free will, or making it so God isn't omniscient or omnipotent(If one is perfect, they know everything, also contradicting free will). If something that knows everything exists, the future exists, and if the future exists, we can't decide it. Again, I hate to use such a horribly cliched arguement, but it makes sense to moi.

Once again that is only true if by observing something you are doing it personally, which is not the case. I can watch a baseball game all I want but that doesn't mean that I personally hit the ball and ran the bases. God knowing all things past and future doesn't remove freewill since he himself is not doing it merely "observing the game". His knowledge of what choices we have/will make does not remove our personal choice at the time we make them; our own perception of time is a linear one after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminous

Is it fair to judge someone for eternity based on a relatively short 100-ish years of activity on a planet that, with its limited resources and vastly different ideas, practically breeds strife? Tis like leaving a drug addict in a room full of drugs, then leaving the room saying "If you touch them, I will be very dissapointed, you silly rabbit!"

Poor analogy since addictions are compulsions that remove choice and the entire point is agency/choice. A better analogy is a child and a candy bar. One of my kids would eat it and one wouldn't. How about you? Those very things you mention are what gives us the opportunity to even choose since how are we to make choices if there are none? As for it being a short time since the "judgment" is on the heart surely the amount of time is unimportant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminous

I can understand that, but if you had kids, would you want them to be raised in a fairly unforgiving and hostile environment? Would a good parent drop their kids in the bully corner of the playground to see how they cope? Shouldn't parents nurture, rather than watch and judge their kids based on performance?

You do both. There is nurturing and instructing but you can't nurture a child that won't listen. The "instructions" involve how to avoid or deal with the "bullies' on the playground but doing it is up to us, to our agency. In cases where there is "unforgiving and hostile environment"s to the point that the children in that playground have no chance of avoiding the "bullies" then you get the punishments of God descending on the people scripturally. For example, Sodom and Gomorrah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminous

Take away the enticement that is the afterlife

That is impossible without changing the very character of God. The point of religion is that there is an afterlife and often that there was a life before as well. Take away an afterlife and you remove God himself and religion by default leaving nothing to discuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminous

Anyways, that's all my input on the matter for now. I suffer from debate fatigue, and it doesn't take too long for me to stop wanting to debate, so I'll just be fading into the background again now, if that's all right.

Your choice.

basilisk888 · May 12, 2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Dude, considering that it was you who opened up this can of worms in the first place, you're not helping the discussion at all. We're not talking about Greek gods here. Besides,

they

don't

exist.

yes I did start this and I do not know were this has gone... in a couple of hours is has changed so much I do not know were it went and how to get back into it...

Quote:

...and he does individually. You just need to realize that God having a larger view of things ofttimes means that the problem itself will not be removed but that the help is in our ability to endure and grow from what happens. To use your own analogy rather then getting it off the shelf for us he either provides the step stool so we can reach it ourselves or tells us we shouldn't be getting it.

Quote:

How will they learn from their lives if they all just die? Sort of defeats the purpose of life doesn't it.

Quote:

Not at all since we aren't omnipotent and can't tell why others are doing what they are ourselves. The non-existence wouldn't increase our ability to perceive that.

Quote:

Once again that is only true if by observing something you are doing it personally, which is not the case. I can watch a baseball game all I want but that doesn't mean that I personally hit the ball and ran the bases. God knowing all things past and future doesn't remove freewill since he himself is not doing it merely "observing the game". His knowledge of what choices we have/will make does not remove our personal choice at the time we make them; our own perception of time is a linear one after all.

Quote:

Poor analogy since addictions are compulsions that remove choice and the entire point is agency/choice. A better analogy is a child and a candy bar. One of my kids would eat it and one wouldn't. How about you? Those very things you mention are what gives us the opportunity to even choose since how are we to make choices if there are none? As for it being a short time since the "judgment" is on the heart surely the amount of time is unimportant.

Quote:

You do both. There is nurturing and instructing but you can't nurture a child that won't listen. The "instructions" involve how to avoid or deal with the "bullies' on the playground but doing it is up to us, to our agency. In cases where there is "unforgiving and hostile environment"s to the point that the children in that playground have no chance of avoiding the "bullies" then you get the punishments of God descending on the people scripturally. For example, Sodom and Gomorrah.

Quote:

That is impossible without changing the very character of God. The point of religion is that there is an afterlife and often that there was a life before as well. Take away an afterlife and you remove God himself and religion by default leaving nothing to discuss.

well as I read this I see one thing that is happening alot. Think for a sec. what if "god" really did not exsist... The world would go on with the Natural way like it has been. There is evidence that life could have started on its own... Just think; what if there was no "god"...

*Arrianna* · May 12, 2008, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basilisk888

well as I read this I see one thing that is happening alot. Think for a sec. what if "god" really did not exsist... The world would go on with the Natural way like it has been. There is evidence that life could have started on its own... Just think; what if there was no "god"...

Has absolutely nothing to do with understanding the concept of Omniscience and Agency of which the entire conversation was addressing. In order to discuss the truth of a subject one has to understand it first.

basilisk888 · May 12, 2008, 11:49 AM

also one has to know what is going on!!! arg... what if you do not know what "Omniscience and Agency" are... (and to not feeling like it to find out what they are...)

ok:
it all depends on the person... some people will naturaly deside to help some one... its not the act of a high and mighty "thing"...

*Arrianna* · May 12, 2008, 03:25 PM

Omniscience means that a being (God in this case) knows everything; past, future, natural laws, science, you name it.

Agency means that every person born is born with the ability to make choices for themselves such as between good and evil.

The discussion involved how an omnipotent God does not interfere with the agency of man and what the consequences of one who did would be. If you go back and read my posts for the last few pages it might make more sense.

Does that help?

basilisk888 · May 12, 2008, 04:41 PM

yep yep

ty for explaining it ^^
but its true it does depend on the person. They might chose to do what they do... it does not mean that there is a "god"... it only means that there is a natural prosses going on...

*LichGRIFFIN* · May 12, 2008, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basilisk888

There is evidence that life could have started on its own... Just think; what if there was no "god"...

How do you think that happened? is there any proof?

*Arrianna* · May 12, 2008, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basilisk888

yep yep

ty for explaining it ^^
but its true it does depend on the person. They might chose to do what they do... it does not mean that there is a "god"... it only means that there is a natural prosses going on...

Correct, agency is a natural law necessary for our happiness.

The question in this case was how agency would be affected by the existence of an omnipotent God and visa verses. Is a God that recognizes and respects agency good or evil or... would a God who didn't but instead removed all choices against it's commands in order to prevent the consequences of evil actions be good or evil? Some people try and claim there cannot be a God because there is suffering in the world but fail to consider the outcome of a God who would not permit any suffering or choice (ie. agency).

Or in other words the existence of suffering in the world is not proof against the "truth" of religion but is instead a natural result of agency.

May 12, 2008, 11:49 AM	#150 (permalink)
basilisk888 Devoted Otaku Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: death and life again Posts: 584 Thanks: 10 Thanked 21 Times in 20 Posts Credits: 16,384	Re: Religion, is it true? also one has to know what is going on!!! arg... what if you do not know what "Omniscience and Agency" are... (and to not feeling like it to find out what they are...) ok: it all depends on the person... some people will naturaly deside to help some one... its not the act of a high and mighty "thing"... __________________ ?namuh a namuh ekam tahw
Status: Offline

May 12, 2008, 03:25 PM	#151 (permalink)
Arrianna Lady Barronmore Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,110 Thanks: 13 Thanked 65 Times in 55 Posts Credits: 47,761	Re: Religion, is it true? Omniscience means that a being (God in this case) knows everything; past, future, natural laws, science, you name it. Agency means that every person born is born with the ability to make choices for themselves such as between good and evil. The discussion involved how an omnipotent God does not interfere with the agency of man and what the consequences of one who did would be. If you go back and read my posts for the last few pages it might make more sense. Does that help? __________________ l Stone Hold l Now We're Cooking! l Thanks to Kaos for the awesome sig!
Status: Offline

May 12, 2008, 04:41 PM	#152 (permalink)
basilisk888 Devoted Otaku Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: death and life again Posts: 584 Thanks: 10 Thanked 21 Times in 20 Posts Credits: 16,384	Re: Religion, is it true? yep yep ty for explaining it ^^ but its true it does depend on the person. They might chose to do what they do... it does not mean that there is a "god"... it only means that there is a natural prosses going on... __________________ ?namuh a namuh ekam tahw
Status: Offline

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Is Religion Necessary?	Tetsanosuke Kirikami	Debate and Discuss	170	Dec 10, 2007 02:20 PM
True Feelings About A True Person....	equinn	Poems	4	Jul 29, 2007 02:42 PM
True Name True Power -- Tarot Method, Ancient truth with a twist	darkness of an angel	Cyber Lounge	0	Apr 24, 2007 11:30 AM
Religion	kedar	The Vault	66	Feb 26, 2006 02:26 PM
religion	Wing 0	The Vault	19	Sep 15, 2005 10:10 AM

Welcome to AnimeOnline.net, your personal Anime Community!	Anime Online Rulez!