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Thread: "Reproductive Rights"?

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    Femmebot Rehab Colt Crouse Champion, Bookworm Champion, Hangman Champion, Connect 2 Champion Peach_follows has become well known Peach_follows has become well known Peach_follows has become well known Peach_follows's Avatar
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    "Reproductive Rights"?

    If a couple should find that they have become pregnant. The woman has 3 options. She can either become a mother, adopt her child out, or terminate the pregnancy (abortion). The reason why I specify that a WOMAN has these rights, is because if the father disapproved of the decision, he has no say.

    If a man does not want to be a father, he can not CHOSE a woman's abortion. Nor could he override her and adopt out the baby. And despite him not wanting to, or not being ready to parent; A man would have to either marry the woman (and be a resentful father). OR, be persued for child support.

    Is that fair? Zorn, < (another AO member) and I were discussing this.

    He thinks it is unfair that a woman can chose weather or not to parent... But a man is OBLIGATED to parent (if the mother decided to), whether he wanted it, or was ready to or not.

    I feel like the decision to parent starts when you decided to have unprotected sex. Or sex at all, seeing as how condoms can break (Or one of Zorn's points: Vindictive women poke holes in them )*rolls eyes*
    Either way, unless you do not understand that sex is an act of reproduction... Then you should be held accountable for any reproduction that occurs from that act. Weather you were ready for it or not.


    And yeah, it is true that a woman CAN decide to terminate. And maybe that is a tad unfair... especially since many women chose abortion simply because of circumstantial reasons (like financial status, relationship status, age). The reason why, I feel that right should remain is because... some circumstances are drastic. Like youth for example. Pregnancy is not meant for young girls. Also, it is simply too much of a medical risk for certain women to carry pregnancies.

    As a single mother, I have experienced that some men do not pay child support. Some men do not work, Or manage to work and evade child support. But if you go without paying (at least in Minnesota) a warrant is issued for your arrest. I also receive child support. And while I am grateful for the amount, it will not realistically support a child on its own. (with perhaps the exception of men with large incomes) Its meant to be an aide.
    But I am sort of on the fence as to weather or not a man should be made to pay child support.

    Maybe you all could toss it around? What do you think?
    Last edited by Peach_follows; Apr 15, 2009 at 08:29 AM.
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    Newbie ScaredPollo is off to a good start
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    Re: "Reproductive Rights"?

    Some people believe that the rights should be circumstantial. For example..
    Say the father does not want to have a child, yet the mother does. So, they have sex. That's when Zorn's point comes in. A woman can easily get pregnant and blame it on the person they are seeing. Then, she'd have a child, and bam. Poor guy is paying child support. And all the woman has to do is go to a sperm bank, or do whatever they want to do to get pregnant
    (i.e. she can say she's on the pill so there's no need for a condom, and blah blah blah).

    But what I believe, is that a woman does have all the rights to do with their child. In reality, men are just tools for reproduction (not to put down my own kind). I believe if a woman wants to have a kid, she can. If she doesn't, then she does't. She's the one that has to deal with everything that comes along with having a baby. Therefore, if the man just ups and leaves, then she SHOULD get on his ass for child support. I mean, men just denying their actions.. That's just being an irresposible person. And what people have to realize is that everything they do, they're responsible for it. Doesn't matter if they don't want to be a parent.. They're the one taking the risk. And aren't always beneficial.

    Don't know if this is what you were looking for..
    But I figured I'd throw my opinion out there.

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    Otaku Franco is off to a good start Franco's Avatar
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    Red face Re: "Reproductive Rights"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peach_follows View Post
    If a couple should find that they have become pregnant. The woman has 3 options. She can either become a mother, adopt her child out, or terminate the pregnancy (abortion). The reason why I specify that a WOMAN has these rights, is because if the father disapproved of the decision, he has no say.

    If a man does not want to be a father, he can not CHOSE a woman's abortion. Nor could he override her and adopt out the baby. And despite him not wanting to, or not being ready to parent; A man would have to either marry the woman (and be a resentful father). OR, be persued for child support.

    Is that fair? Zorn, < (another AO member) and I were discussing this.

    He thinks it is unfair that a woman can chose weather or not to parent... But a man is OBLIGATED to parent (if the mother decided to), whether he wanted it, or was ready to or not.

    I feel like the decision to parent starts when you decided to have unprotected sex. Or sex at all, seeing as how condoms can break (Or one of Zorn's points: Vindictive women poke holes in them )*rolls eyes*
    Either way, unless you do not understand that sex is an act of reproduction... Then you should be held accountable for any reproduction that occurs from that act. Weather you were ready for it or not.

    But I am sort of on the fence as to weather or not a man should be made to pay child support.

    Maybe you all could toss it around? What do you think?
    I don't know, until it happens to you or your a woman, you can't really talk about the options when dealing with pregenacy. so I will touch on the topic of child support, I think that it is the mother who has the option of seeking child support from the father, I think? but I could see the double standard of the system with the mans wallet being the only thing valued then his opinion or feelings not being valued or respected, then again we (males) are not the ones caring that life inside of us so it is easy for us to walk away from this with just our "wallets" being effected with, but you forgot a third option for the man, he doesn't have to marry the woman or just be a child support check, he could actually be involved with the childs life and be a father, instead of being some paycheck. It takes two to tango and so if you decide to dance knowing the risk's, then you should both be responsible for the consequences involved because you are not only making a choice for yourselves, but for a child who has no say in the matter, so be a parent who is responsible then some pay check guys, man up.

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    Re: "Reproductive Rights"?

    but you forgot a third option for the man, he doesn't have to marry the woman or just be a child support check, he could actually be involved with the childs life and be a father, instead of being some paycheck.
    Well I know that once the child support agency is involved, (at least in my state)... They don't care weather or not you see or spend time with your kid. If you are not married you still have to pay. And theoretically speaking, a man who didn't want to parent initially, may not be so great at spending time with a kid.
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    Otaku Franco is off to a good start Franco's Avatar
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    Re: "Reproductive Rights"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peach_follows View Post
    Well I know that once the child support agency is involved, (at least in my state)... They don't care weather or not you see or spend time with your kid. If you are not married you still have to pay. And theoretically speaking, a man who didn't want to parent initially, may not be so great at spending time with a kid.
    Hence why I said the man has a third option (it's up to them to follow it if they want to), what I am saying is that men have to take responsiblity and not leave (without resolving the issue), because the women is the one who has to live with the consequences most of the time, and men have to decide what they need to do because they are the ones who are half responsible for the pregenacy, which is why I said the man has three options to choose when it comes to this kind of situation. also theoretically speaking, not all men don't want to abandon a child because they don't get along with the mother, after all, that child is still their offspring.

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    Devoted Otaku Tbaism may be famous one day Tbaism may be famous one day
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    Re: "Reproductive Rights"?

    Scaredpollo, they only way to really trick a man into getting a woman pregant involves doing the deed. It is fairly difficult to just run off to a spermbank considering DNA is used as evidence when considering child support.

    Anyways, I think the guy should pay up, but only under the right circumstances. I expect the only way it works now is that the man pays only with the mother's consent, but then again, I never really delved in to this particular area.

    By the way Peach, these "circumstances" I speak of are the same circumstances that you described for the woman having an abortion, in a sense, and apparently that you judge unfavorable; it is just an assumption, one that could be wrong. If you can accept the reasons for abortion, I don't see why you should be on the fence for this particular situation.

    That child is in their for roughly 9 months and at almost any point during this time, that child could be terminated. The decision for child support should lay there and during no other time. If the system was nuetral, without religious stances, ethics, or such morals, this conversation wouldn't exist. The system is how it is today and that is the only reason why we question it.

    Every action and decision should be held accountable and deciding whether or not you want it should decide the vote. If the mother wants it but the father doesn't, why should he have to pay? If The mother forced the pregnancy on the father, why should he have to pay? I honestly don't know how much damage an abortion does to the human body, but if a mistake can be corrected, than I don't see why this should be that much of an issue.

    By the way, I have no real feelings toward any stance, but if things were as people suggest they should be, than I see no real point in asking the question. Sex is meant for reproduction, but a lot of society doesn't have sex just to reproduce. Just because our bodies function one way doesn't mean that is the only way it can function or has to. We decide these things and if I want to have sex for pleasure, than I will.

    ********

    Also, Franco is right by saying there is a third option. There is nothing that says someones has to be married in order to be a loving parent, resentful or not.
    Last edited by Tbaism; Apr 16, 2009 at 12:35 AM.

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    Re: "Reproductive Rights"?

    @ Tbaism

    I think it is more difficult for -most- women To abort or adopt out their children, on an instinctual parenting level. Than it is for a man to just walk away from his responsibility.

    I think that the instinct to "mother" a child can kick in during early pregnancy. I dont think men develop a parental sense over an unborn child. Im not saying it never happens, it just doesn't happen as soon and as strong as does for the mother. Especially given that the couple in question are separated (or were never committed).

    So a woman, who doesn't feel she is ready to parent. Becomes pregnant by a man who feels he is not ready. But because she FEELS CONNECTED TO THIS LIFE GROWING INSIDE OF HER she can not bare to abort or adopt it out. ...This would mean, that because the father was not subject to this connection with said child. He could say "Eh I didn't want it" And go without paying child support?

    I know plenty of women who became mothers, despite not feeling ready. (Myself included) It's pretty hard to not want to keep that life growing away inside you. Trust me, there is a sense of obligation that is developed early in pregnancy for MANY women. So if we are obligated to parent... So are they. (not that child support even constitutes as a parenting method).

    Sure, it would be great if people who aren't ready to parent.... just didn't have sex. Or if every pregnant woman, who knew she couldn't handle it alone, and knew the father wasn't interested in parenting; Just got an abortion... or found a family to take their baby in. But that is not realistic. Some people are very ethically torn by abortion. And believe it to be a sin worthy of condemnment. And carrying a baby to term, and giving it up would be quite difficult too, I know I couldn't do it. Imagine how many children would go completely unsupported by the father, if men were able to wave off their child support payment by simply claiming they don't want to parent.
    Last edited by Peach_follows; Apr 16, 2009 at 08:09 AM.
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    Re: "Reproductive Rights"?

    Argh, I don't agree with the entire feel for the topic.
    But that's just the feel.

    Maybe I'm odd, but parents should have a REAL connection to each other before they should ever decide anything. And after having the connection, they should be responsible for every decision the other makes.

    I'll agree with the idea that the woman has the choice in the end whether or not she wants an abortion. But I believe the man is also responsible to what happens to the child. The man shouldn't tell the doctor the opposite of what his wife wishes, but he has every right to convince her otherwise.
    There's the idea that it's also the man's seed, but many people will ignore that idea since most men don't exactly treat their "seeds" with any care in the first place.

    Argh, I just don't like the topic. It feels off.
    It's the idea that the husband and wife disagree on something completely.
    I don't exactly know how that feels. At least, not with my partner.
    I suppose it's exactly how it feels with other people, but that's like treating your partner as a stranger. You should know and understand everything they're feeling and thinking, right? ... I seriously don't know how it would feel if I felt that blind to what she was thinking as to disagree completely with her.
    Even then, shouldn't the parents both know what's best?
    Agh, I know I know. That's rarely the case.
    But I just can't relate...

    In my opinion, I find it odd that we decide to do anything with thinking lives. I don't feel like we really OWN a child, we just mentor a child and help them grow. We're responsible lawfully what happens to them, but in the end the only one responsible is themselves. We're only responsible as caretakers and mentors, not as ultimate judges.
    I don't agree with the idea of abortion, since it's taking away a thinking life - making an ultimate judgement.
    But if Maggie were to die if she were to give birth, I'd take abortion as an only option....
    ...and if she dares choose to let the child be born as she dies, then I have the right to kill myself since she has the right to do it to herself. *sigh* But hell, if she really wanted me to take care of the child, I'll agree - to a point.

    My allegiance is to her first, the child next. It'll depress me if she chooses the child over me - but I'll respect it.

    The rights to giving birth is hers. It's her body, it's her choice.
    But I can intervene and take responsibility if I have to, it'll be my right to do what I want with my body - and I'll take whatever punishment comes with it.
    In that sense, I suggest there should be laws against the husband if he chooses to do something opposite of what his wife wishes for her giving birth. He can do what he wants, but take whatever punishment is given to him. Forcing a life to do anything opposite of its wishes should have a clear punishment or backfire, and the degree of punishment and backfire should depend completely on the degree of the choice being forced.

    ...blah... blah blah blah... argh, tired of talking about this topic...

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