Should Mandatory Drug Tests For Students Be Used? - Page 2

*Arrianna* · Jan 27, 2008, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Descended From Darkness

What kids, teachers, parents and even principals don't realize is that the 4th amendment prohibits anything like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priestess Angel

Yeah, they usually get around that with consent forms. So even if you do refuse you are still bound to that written agreement.

On the contrary the courts have determined that the 4th amendment has no bearing on public school searches etc since they are public buildings you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. You don't own those lockers they do and they have the right to do whatever they feel is necessary to secure the safety and well being of their students. If the school determines that testing, locker searches, etc. are necessary (ie. "reasonable") they can do anything short of a blood test and don't need waivers to do it. The only way it would be against the 4th amendment is if there was NO crime, drugs or anything else, they had no reason to believe there was any, and they did a search anyway just because (ie. "unreasonable" search). Try again.

Fourth Amendment Defined & Explained
FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Fourth Amendment: Annotations pg. 4 of 6

*Priestess Angel* · Jan 27, 2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrianna

On the contrary the courts have determined that the 4th amendment has no bearing on public school searches etc since they are public buildings you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. You don't own those lockers they do and they have the right to do whatever they feel is necessary to secure the safety and well being of their students. If the school determines that testing, locker searches, etc. are necessary (ie. "reasonable") they can do anything short of a blood test and don't need waivers to do it. The only way it would be against the 4th amendment is if there was NO crime, drugs or anything else, they had no reason to believe there was any, and they did a search anyway just because (ie. "unreasonable" search). Try again.

Fourth Amendment Defined & Explained
FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Fourth Amendment: Annotations pg. 4 of 6

Learn something new everyday. You bring up an interesting point, too. The students don’t own the school. It’s one of the reasons I’m not against it. In my mind, the faculty has a right to try and find out if there are any drugs on their campus especially if there is a known drug problem within the school. I have heard the mentioning of how nobody’s dumb enough to bring drugs to school. Well, one of the major reasons nobody does it is because of these drug tests.

aceman67 · Jan 27, 2008, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrianna

If the school determines that testing,

Being in a public building does not mean that they have the right to subject you to drug testing. Yes, they have the right to do what ever they want to their property, but they most definitely do not have a right to force you to give up Urine or Blood samples. You have every right to the privacy of your own body, when I was in school and they tried to get a drug test out of me, I'd simply ask: "Wheres your court signed warrant?"

*Arrianna* · Jan 27, 2008, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceman67

Being in a public building does not mean that they have the right to subject you to drug testing. Yes, they have the right to do what ever they want to their property, but they most definitely do not have a right to force you to give up Urine or Blood samples. You have every right to the privacy of your own body, when I was in school and they tried to get a drug test out of me, I'd simply ask: "Wheres your court signed warrant?"

Except urine samples are not considered bodily/personal privacy only blood samples are (blood has to be taken from the body by invasion ie. the needle and urine isn't) and according to the Supreme Court they don't need a warrant to test you as long as it is done in a reasonable manner, especially if you participate in sports or any other extracurricular activity that would be effected by drugs. If the school had wanted to suspend you for refusing the test they could have done so legally and you would have had no recourse.

Astaroth · Jan 27, 2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

God searches School lockers? No kidding??

LOL....oops....I meant so say dogs....wow...that looked so stupid.......lol

*Descended From Darkness* · Jan 27, 2008, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrianna

On the contrary the courts have determined that the 4th amendment has no bearing on public school searches etc since they are public buildings you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. You don't own those lockers they do and they have the right to do whatever they feel is necessary to secure the safety and well being of their students. If the school determines that testing, locker searches, etc. are necessary (ie. "reasonable") they can do anything short of a blood test and don't need waivers to do it. The only way it would be against the 4th amendment is if there was NO crime, drugs or anything else, they had no reason to believe there was any, and they did a search anyway just because (ie. "unreasonable" search). Try again.

Fourth Amendment Defined & Explained
FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Fourth Amendment: Annotations pg. 4 of 6

It doesn't matter. Technically you do own the books and the lockers. They may be bought by the school but they are used by the students. Therefore possession is 9/10 of the law. You do however own your bookbags and they should not and cannot look through them without either your permission or without a warrant.

And thank you Arrianna for reminding me that students have no rights. We are nothing more than second class citizens and should be treated as such. ^__^.

*Arrianna* · Jan 27, 2008, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Descended From Darkness

It doesn't matter. Technically you do own the books and the lockers. They may be bought by the school but they are used by the students. Therefore possession is 9/10 of the law. You do however own your bookbags and they should not and cannot look through them without either your permission or without a warrant.

And thank you Arrianna for reminding me that students have no rights. We are nothing more than second class citizens and should be treated as such. ^__^.

No, you do not own the textbooks unless you have paid for them not that it matters. Not only CAN they search your book bags they can search the pockets of your pants or any other clothes on your person. It's no different then an airport, or are you going to tell them they can't make you go through those detectors etc there?

You have just as many rights as everyone else Descended From Darkness. You are just suffering the common illusion that the 4th amendment protect you from ANY search without your permission or a warrant. The truth is it only protects from "unreasonable" search (go read it). Warrants are only required in situations where there may be legal question as to it being reasonable. And anytime that officials of any kind have a reasonable suspicion of illegal activity they can make a "reasonable" search. It's like being stopped for speeding and the police spotting empty alcohol containers. They don't need a warrant or your permission to make you step out of the car and check your blood alcohol level. In like manner if a school official hears of guns, drugs, or other such activities in the school even if it is only rumored they have every "reason" to make a search etc. Don't like it? Get angry at the students that are giving them "reason". No reason = no search.

*Lasura* · Jan 28, 2008, 06:38 AM

Ummm... F**k privacy? I mean it's not just your private business if you're using drugs!!! It affects not only the user but many people around him. Not only the closest relatives, who have to watch them ruining their lifes. By buying drugs these persons help the drug business blossom!!! Blah blah...

I mean they don't do anything to the persons who don't use drugs. It's just a test, just a doggie and just search. If you don't have anything to hide you're alright. Their just doing their job.
Students thesedays are too upset about their rights. It's sometimes used just to play cool, just to not listen to the teacher, just to avoid doing something, forgeting about any responsibilities.

I think US is quite lucky to have this, because in Latvia you would get people selling drugs in kinder gardens and nothing much is done about this situation... it's just bad... The governemnt is busy with spending money on the worlds most expensive bridge, for example!!!

*atomik_sprout* · Jan 28, 2008, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsurara

absolutely not.

We can't search people's homes without warrants. We shouldn't be able beat or shoot unarmed people because they ~might~ resist arrest.

Punishing students who have committed no offense by submitting having them yank out their hair or pee in cups once a week and worry if the nyquil they drank last night or the marajuana brownie their big brother fed them as a joke is going to get them kicked out of school.

We shouldn't be treating schools like hotbeds for criminal activity. If there is reason to suspect someone, go from there. Making every single student submit to a potentially humiliating and totally unwarranted breech of privacy simply out of policy is inane.

What next? Accessing our google search histories to see if we've ever cheated on our homework online, lied about our age on myspace or talked about shooting teachers? Kicking kids out of school for singing "light a match and watch it burn" (something we've been singing for YEARS and YEARS)? ...though I suppose some schools are already doing this stuff...

People need to stop jumping at shadows. Shit happens. It always has and it always will. We can't protect our children from THEMSELVES. They need to make mistakes, learn from them and be accountable for them as inviduals. Treating our kids like criminals or hubcaps coming out of an assemblyline isn't doing anyone any favors. Nor is hyperventalating at every potential danger to them ("anon", jenkem, huffing magic markers, choking on bottle caps, wheels in their shoes, snowboarding, toad-licking, etc. etc.) isn't going to help: it's only going to create a more frightening, oppressive and (dare I say) facist enviornment in which to grow up.

Kids NEED to make mistakes to learn how to live their lives.

The answer isn't making it impossible for them to make mistakes... it's making them accountable when they're caught.

Tsurara's right, you can't search a home without a warrant. Hell, you can't search a PERSON without a warrant or at least good probable cause!

Not every school in the US does random drug testing or searching. In fact, a school can have the world's worst drug problem, and more often than not, searches won't take place unless there's a VALID reason for it. If your school is doin' it, it's probably because there's a dealer in your school, or on school grounds.

I know that here in Minnesota, you can't test a student unless you suspect they're on drugs. You can't search a student without probable cause, and in most cases, a warrant. The police NEVER show up at a school unless there are tangible drugs in the school; not just because they heard word of mouth.

You can't drug test a kid just because you feel like it, or because you feel that there MIGHT be drugs in the school. Also, most of the time, you'd need a parent's consent to even consider testing a student for drugs; the very same rule applies with any medical practice dealing with minors.

Tsurara's right. Preventing kids from making mistakes won't solve anything. Kids--just like adults--need to learn from experience and not have their hands held through their later years in childhood. Besides. The way you speak of this school makes me think that they're going against the law and school district policies.

Scourge · Jan 28, 2008, 08:14 AM

I agree with Arrianna

She is right in practicly every way. The school does have the athority to do randum drug searches through studints lockers as the students dont own them. The school owns them. They payed for them and built them. They can also have dogs going around sniffing through the lockers and even peoples backpack. Its not a violation of privocy if the dog is sniffing around the backpack or purse or what ever because the dog nore is the person openeing it up and digging around through it so its not a violation of privacy. Now you nead warrent to go through peoples property. If they have a warrent then you cant say jack squat. What if the dog was suppose to go around and sniff at the backpacks and purses and just happens to get a sniff of some one and goes to them, is this a violation? No the dog sniffed something and those dogs are highly trained to not do that so if it does, the officer can ask you to empty your pockets, but you have the right to say no and they cant force you to because they dont have a warrent.

*Descended From Darkness* · Jan 28, 2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arrianna

No, you do not own the textbooks unless you have paid for them not that it matters. Not only CAN they search your book bags they can search the pockets of your pants or any other clothes on your person. It's no different then an airport, or are you going to tell them they can't make you go through those detectors etc there?

You have just as many rights as everyone else Descended From Darkness. You are just suffering the common illusion that the 4th amendment protect you from ANY search without your permission or a warrant. The truth is it only protects from "unreasonable" search (go read it). Warrants are only required in situations where there may be legal question as to it being reasonable. And anytime that officials of any kind have a reasonable suspicion of illegal activity they can make a "reasonable" search. It's like being stopped for speeding and the police spotting empty alcohol containers. They don't need a warrant or your permission to make you step out of the car and check your blood alcohol level. In like manner if a school official hears of guns, drugs, or other such activities in the school even if it is only rumored they have every "reason" to make a search etc. Don't like it? Get angry at the students that are giving them "reason". No reason = no search.

Unfourtunatly you're misguided. Students can talk against certain legislation. We can't raise our voice against something. We have to sit quiet and nod our head and smile at everything. We have no freedoms. We can't even be creative. We have to listen to the system so that we can act like everyone else and become the perfect little robots that we are. Last I checked I live in the US. I don't know what country you're living in. But I don't blame the kids for doing the drugs. I know kids who do it and I don't blame them. I support legalization of a certain drug that can benefit me in the end but that's a different topic. I blame the parents and the school board for treating us like second class citizens. Last I checked Arrianna you home-school your kids so how would you know what rights we get. The 4th amendment is a basic right that should be granted to EVERY citizen whether they are a student or not.

Jan 28, 2008, 06:38 AM	#19 (permalink)
Lasura Angelic Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: In a Demon's Arms Posts: 1,872 Thanks: 56 Thanked 34 Times in 31 Posts Credits: 49,619	Re: Should Mandatory Drug Tests For Students Be Used? Ummm... F**k privacy? I mean it's not just your private business if you're using drugs!!! It affects not only the user but many people around him. Not only the closest relatives, who have to watch them ruining their lifes. By buying drugs these persons help the drug business blossom!!! Blah blah... I mean they don't do anything to the persons who don't use drugs. It's just a test, just a doggie and just search. If you don't have anything to hide you're alright. Their just doing their job. Students thesedays are too upset about their rights. It's sometimes used just to play cool, just to not listen to the teacher, just to avoid doing something, forgeting about any responsibilities. I think US is quite lucky to have this, because in Latvia you would get people selling drugs in kinder gardens and nothing much is done about this situation... it's just bad... The governemnt is busy with spending money on the worlds most expensive bridge, for example!!! __________________ My recommended fanfic: "Dreamer" by Scourge
Status: Offline

Jan 28, 2008, 08:14 AM	#21 (permalink)
Scourge Devoted Otaku Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Southern California Posts: 602 Thanks: 209 Thanked 85 Times in 73 Posts Credits: 42,760	Re: Should Mandatory Drug Tests For Students Be Used? I agree with Arrianna She is right in practicly every way. The school does have the athority to do randum drug searches through studints lockers as the students dont own them. The school owns them. They payed for them and built them. They can also have dogs going around sniffing through the lockers and even peoples backpack. Its not a violation of privocy if the dog is sniffing around the backpack or purse or what ever because the dog nore is the person openeing it up and digging around through it so its not a violation of privacy. Now you nead warrent to go through peoples property. If they have a warrent then you cant say jack squat. What if the dog was suppose to go around and sniff at the backpacks and purses and just happens to get a sniff of some one and goes to them, is this a violation? No the dog sniffed something and those dogs are highly trained to not do that so if it does, the officer can ask you to empty your pockets, but you have the right to say no and they cant force you to because they dont have a warrent.
Status: Offline

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