_gwenibe_

That's the nature of Freedom of Speech for you. In fact I disagree the only limit freedom of speech is the law - and that's there to protect it. I'm proud to be able to say what I like about our leaders and not get prosecuted for it.

Nor do I see how these protests are insulting - maybe to the runners and the Chinese government?

Would have loved to have seen them do that under Saddam Hussain (Who most Iraq's didn't like but couldn't say out of fear of prosecution)


Clearly not getting our point. We don't care whether or not or how long the Chinese has been in Tibet or even if it is a Chinese province

The point is Tibet no longer want it. They don't want China in Tibet.

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Arrianna

Exactly. At the time the communist government took over China Tibet was an independent country and had been for decades which China, not even the same government of China but a new one, then invaded. Even to this day there are arguments about how much autonomy they should have inside China. There have also been several attempts to return them to being an independent country which have all failed.

However as gwenibe pointed out the question isn't whether or not it is currently a province of China but whether or not it wants to be a separate and/or autonomous country (yes) and whether any and all attempts to push for either autonomy or independence have been squashed by the Chinese government in inhumane and deadly ways (also yes).

You see, we believe in actual rights here including the right to tell your government you don't like it and march in protest without being run over by a tank, shot, or arrested. That is why people are upset and are protesting in other countries where we actually have rights like real freedom of speech. Personally I hope people don't stop giving the Chinese government a piece of their mind. The way China has handled everything from the papers requiring athletes performing in the Olympics to keep their moth shut, to arresting monks for marching in protest, to arresting and shooting people for speaking their mind has seriously damaged their image and reputation. To put it colloquially, they have lost a great deal of face.

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Asian Guy

Independent, I want to ask you if you think Tibet is a country when it is under Qing Dynasty reign or just 1 of the Chinese province?

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ketaro

Like i pointed out to you before, Tibet became an independent nation after the fall of the Qing Dynasty in 1911. Before the fall of the Qing Dynasty indeed Tibet was a province, but after the fall of the Qing Dynasty it became a freaking independent country something that China apparently doesn't understand. So yes, i do believe that Tibet is an independent nation.

Asian Guy

So what you said have prove that Tibet is part of China and just declare independence that result in Chinese central goverment to storm Tibet around 50 years ago to regain control of Tibet back from the munity.

That is why I ask one of the member here if he/she supporting separatism ideology or not. Unlike Russia Federation that are formed from several countries, so there is no reason to support Tibet independence since it is one of Chinese propince that declare its independence just because some of peoples there do it.

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Arrianna

Based on that logic China is actually part of Tibet instead since Tibet conquered the capitol of China in 763 and required the Chinese to pay a "a perpetual yearly tribute of 50,000 rolls of silk" to them. China stormed Tibet with a completely separate government then the one Tibet declared independence from, did so more then 30 years later, and had no more claim on them then Tibet does on China.

127 B.C.-842 A.D. Tibetian (Bod) Empire
842-1247 Multiple Princedoms
1254 to 1350 Rule of 20 Sakya Lamas (invaded by Mongols)
1358-1434 Ruled by the Governor of Nedong
etc...
1642 Fifth Dalai Lama recognized as an independent sovereign by Ming Emperor.
1720 Manchu's gain control of the Sixth Dalai Lama
1786 Gurkhas invaded Tibet
1792 Manchu army repels Gurkas at the request of the Eighth Dalai Lama
1856 Tibet signs treaty with Nepal as a sovereign nation
1876-1890 Treaties between Britain and China remained unrecognized by Tibet on grounds of independent sovereignty.
September 7, 1904 treaty signed directly between Tibet and Britain
1910 Manchu/Chinese troops invade Tibet
1911 Chinese troops mutiny
1912 Chinese troops expelled, Tibet's independence declared by Dalai Lama
January 1913 bilateral treaty signed between Tibet and Mongolia, both declare themselves free and independent from China
September 1949 Communist China invades

(A much more detailed time line can be found here.)

In essence sometimes it has been part of China and sometimes it hasn't. To claim it should be just because it has been is like saying that Germany should be ruled by France because of Charlemagne.


None of this has the slightest bit of importance however from a "rule by the people" view. The question isn't what the government of China wants but what the people of Tibet want. If they want to be autonomous/independent then if you believe in individual rights they have the right to be just that.



Now if you want to be taken seriously I suggest you use actual facts to discount anything said rather then just throwing out insults. That is how this works.

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Asian Guy

You have forgotten that there is no China as a country before the revolution of China. So when Tibet invade, it is just like 1 kingdom invade another kingdom in 1 country. Just how Indonesia formed from hundreds of Kingdom, China also formed the same way.

On other word you support separatism ideology.

I'm surprised you are not defending your lies anymore of saying China invade Tibet because the Tibetan ask for it to get ride of Dalai lama as their leader. Or saying America invade Iraq because the Iraqi asking American to invade them to get ride of Saddam.

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Arrianna

Bzzt... You failed again. Not only did you fail to actually try to refute any facts you fell back on the "you lie" argument to try and discredit me. Poor form.

A. I did not say China invaded Tibet because they were invited, I am sure they would have done that anyway, but that they were invited and then welcomed when they did. I was merely working with your own ridiculous comparison of the US coalitions deposing Saddam Hussein with China's current actions. The point I was trying to make was that the invasion of Tibet was supported, even welcomed, by the common people because communist China took over the government and they didn't want the Tibetan elite back running things so all attempts to infiltrate and put the Dalai Lama back in charge failed for lack of support by the common people. If you support China doing that then how do you get off casting stones at another country for doing the same thing?

B. In the legislation (the actual paperwork you can go look it up yourself) authorizing the invasion of Iraq essentially three reasons were given:

1. To prevent Iraq from getting WMD's and developing nuclear weapons.
2. To destroy a terrorist haven and location of Terrorist training camps.
3. Prevent the genocide and human rights violations being committed against the people of Iraq by it's own government.

The last was reported by the massive refugees who begged for intercession and was not only confirmed by Iraqi government reports collected afterward but exceeded.
Again you can go look up the actual interviews of the refugees.


This still has nothing to do with China however and unless you can define when this supposed "revolution of China" took place that created China as a country and prove that Tibet has not been both independent and autonomous at any time since then your own claims have no validity. It's not supporting "separatism ideology", it is supporting the people's right to choose what they want be it Independence or Autonomy.
Dalai Lama: Tibet Cannot Make Any More Concessions to China
Dalai Lama Fears More Chinese Force


It's called rule by the people Asian Guy. It may be a strange concept for you but it based on a belief that governments exist for the benefit of the people and on their approval not the other way around. Inalienable rights not government given rights. Until the US or any other country objecting to China's actions start imprisoning journalists for questioning the government, arresting religious leaders for taking moral stands, killing those with other political affiliations, and cause mass exoduses of refugees from their borders in fear of their life there simply is no comparison. You can defend it all you want but the fact remains that the actions of the Chinese government are reprehensible and people object to them as they should.

Now I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt because you had seemed to be actually discussing things, please don't strike out ie. "fail" a third time.

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atomik_sprout

Sports and politics have been intergrated for years, decades, centuries, MILLENIA!!! The colloseum battles during the Roman empire was considered a sport and most deaths in the battles were decided by the emperor (the whole thumbs up, thumbs down idea). The olympics in Germany during Hitler's reign was highly controversial and politics was all there was to talk about during that time period--y'know with the second world war and all...

So, why can't there be a political discussion about whether or not China should host the olympics? I think it's a good topic. Yeah, yeah, yeah... The olympics was made for countries to come together and "play nice", maybe show off some skills, but when push comes to shove, people are weird when it comes to "outsiders", or "foreigners".

First of all, the invasion in Iraq has nothing to do with the olympics in China, except for the fact that the US should keep it's nose in Iraq and leave China to handle it's business on it's own. We'd be massively outnumbered if it came to a land battle!

Second, I don't think the olympics in China are gonna be a success or a failure. I think it's just gonna be a normal olympic event that comes and goes every four years like February 29th. Maybe there'll be a bomb or two goin' off like the olympics in... Was it Atlanta? (Little help please?)

I don't think that China getting the olympics has anything to do with Tibet, personally, so I don't understand why protesters who aren't even FROM Tibet are even trippin'. All China wants to do is look friendly, and I say let them. When you get a toy labeled, "Great American Toy," and on the back it says, "Made in China," you've got yourself one kick ass stuffed animal!!! LOL, Go China!

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