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Thread: Socialism... is it really that bad?

  1. #17
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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna View Post
    That is not strictly true. Costa Rica has the 4th highest inflation in Latin America at 9.30%. Over 16% of the populous is living in poverty, unemployment is at 5.5% (not to high), and government welfare costs are as high as in the Scandinavian countries. The standard of currency trades at 575$ or 710E (last checked) and inflation was only recently checked. Tourism is it's highest earner in foreign exchange totaling more then it's 3 main exports together, including coffee. Without the 2.2 billion that brings in it is entirely possible the whole thing would collapse. All that aside with your claim of 50 years? in 1980 the socialist programs brought things crashing down. Inflation, currency devaluation, soaring welfare costs, plunging value of your natural resources, that isn't doing well. Not until the last few years where in 2007 the government had it's first "budget surplus", sort of, there is still the debt both Nationally and Internationally.

    The real kicker? The only thing that has kept Costa Rica's economy flowing is tax breaks and other encouragement to, guess it... private enterprise.

    In other words you may have socialized medicine and a welfare state but your economy is pure capitalism. Now imagine how wealthy Costa Rica would be without the drain of welfare on it. Socialism would do just the opposite. Keep your welfare but remove the capitalist systems that are paying for it.
    That more than 16% you state is 16.7%... (Costa Rica baja Ã*ndice de pobreza y desempleo a nivel histórico - SkyScraperLife) and it is still fighting poverty and giving more employments to people... and that with the "universal and socialistic" health welfare. About the inflation it is now in 13.9% and the government is working on keeping it under control. (Costa Rica mantiene inflación bajo control - AOL Money & Finance)
    But, if we capitalize or privatize the social services there will be so many people (like in here) that wouldn't be able to get a good health service, shots wouldn't be given when needed since they are too expensive to get... insurance companies would do their business as they do in here.
    How come here WITH insurance and you paying $900 monthly they give so many "buts" when you need them to pay your medical bill...and when they decide to pay it you still have to pay $2453.57? And it is supposed to help you... yeah right....And without insurance is almost impossible to get service.
    This is when I wished humans were more conscious with others... this is where I wish there was no need of money... it is when someone dies of a stomach ulcer because he wasn't treated since he couldn't afford it... that I wish at least that would be socialized... is it that bad to get a service for everyone even if they don't have the money for it? why is it money more important than a human life? why is it that capitalism gets the high class people higher and the lowest class lower? there are people that have fought their whole life to get out of where they are at... but they haven't been able... not because they don't want but because they just can't... no matter how hard they work...
    between capitalism and socialism (not the corrupt socialism where one gets the power... the real socialism) I rather choose socialism... it is more human...
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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    And why do you think its so expensive? I have told you that free health care would make everything pricy and almost unafordable because of it and there for you are always in debt one way or another because you have to pay it off some how, even if that means by making everything ungodly expensive which then forces you to continue the same path as before and your constantly digging your self in a hole economicly wise. I do recal saying that in my posts.
    Money is a necacary evil if you will but money is also good and helpful depending on how it is used and optained. You can wish and rub that lamp all you want, its not going to change. This is reality and you have to work with what you got. No amount of wishing or dreaming or hoping will ever change that and there are many things you can do that mean well but do not work well in reality. Socialism is one of them. Also, as Arrianna has pointed out, Costa Rica is not Socialistic, as Arrianna said that many of the Socialistic parts of the Gov. were colapsing under its own weight and had to be removed and changed back to Capatalistic, by giving the buisness back to the hands of the people and privet owners as well as tax brakes. Thats Capatalisom and not Socialism, with the free health care being the single most biggest drain. With out free heath care, Costa Richa would be rolling in the green, making free health care pointless as people then have money to burn.
    Last edited by Scourge; Jun 01, 2009 at 03:52 PM.
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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by lebasiara View Post
    About the inflation it is now in 13.9% and the government is working on keeping it under control. (Costa Rica mantiene inflación bajo control - AOL Money & Finance)
    That is even worse then the 9.30% quote I found, not better.

    Quote Originally Posted by lebasiara View Post
    How come here WITH insurance and you paying $900 monthly they give so many "buts" when you need them to pay your medical bill...and when they decide to pay it you still have to pay $2453.57? And it is supposed to help you... yeah right....And without insurance is almost impossible to get service.
    ??? Here? Where and what did those numbers come from?


    Quote Originally Posted by lebasiara View Post
    between capitalism and socialism (not the corrupt socialism where one gets the power... the real socialism) I rather choose socialism... it is more human...
    The "real" socialism doesn't exist because of being human. Until you can have a society were every single person thinks more of others then themselves it never will.... start holding your breath.

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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Yeah I think all my points have been already pointed out but I'll spit out my 2 cents =P Socialism looks amazing on paper. But the problem is that all the times large countries have tried to implement it, we've seen many many MANY problems. Honestly, I'd love a world where we'd all try our best and be equal and love each other. Sadly, that's not human nature.

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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by lebasiara View Post
    The problem though I think is that the socialism that Europe has is based in money.... what if we get rid of all the money and we work for a common cause that is to take care of each other and to take care of the country we live in.
    With the money ruling what you get is very capable people unable to get to the top because they can't afford an education that has become a big business... colleges are so expensive and getting loans always has a catch to it since money is the most important thing... scholarships are not easy to get and there is also money in between or the thought of 'what can I get from this person if I give him/her a scholarship...
    it would be very nice if a family could go let's say to walmart and just grab whatever they need without paying with money but with work... and since all would be working to improve the country money wouldn't be needed.
    Love to money is the beginning of all trouble.... if money didn't exist there would be no problems with loving money or loving power... since 'money gives power'
    the socialism practiced today is corrupted by capitalism... the govts are getting full of people that want to get rich and powerful when the main goal should be to get the country going having all as middle class and not all as poor people as it happens today.
    yes I rather have free care but not only the basic care... also specialists...
    I don't think this would promote laziness but it would create real people... like for example a doctor wouldn't be preparing him/herself to be a 'good doctor to get a good pay' but to give a better and improved service to his/her country by helping to have a healthy population. I don't know... maybe I am asking to much from the human race...
    How do you figure that we simple humans will get rid of currency? Currency is just a more advance system of bartering (trade), but instead of trading 2 chickens for 15 ears of corn, the currancy is used to replace that and make it easier to trade for the goods or services you want. If you live in a village of farmers who just specialize in tomato growing, then what motivation would the village doctor want to see a farmer who can only trade the same thing that everyone else has and not offer something that no one else has, what will make him want to see more patients when all he gets X amount of tomatoes and once he meets it then why work harder. What I am getting at is that with capitalism we can have our farmers, teachers, businesses, health services, etc. work in their industries without having to worry about the gov. saying that you will only get a set wage and will never have a chance of getting paid more for working hard. I have seen a lot of lazy workers at low wage jobs because why work hard at lets say Kmart, when I don't get a raise in a year and all I have to do is the minimum to get it.

    If you want a historical example then look back at Soviet Russia, communism (a branch off of socialism, but is more gov. run by a few privledge elite, but is really run by a dictator), lenin could not get anyone to grow anything and so he had to turn to Capitalism to bring their farming back, now fast forward to Stalin who over turned that decision and murdered the Kulag ("rich" peasants farmers) because they benefited from the system and in doing that he murdered his best farmers and caused a major food shortage, even through he sent the remaining farmers into communial farmers, who wants to work more if all you need is to meet a set amount.

    Quote Originally Posted by lebasiara View Post
    it is a shame you didn't finish reading... I am not as fool as you think I am... a dreamer maybe...the world has advanced to this point because of the dreamers that thought of things that were foolish for others... it has advanced thanks to the 'impossible' dreams men and women had...
    I know humans we don't work that way... it is a shame... but we could...
    if we would really put in practice what is on the paper it would be a lot better. If we would just put the 'me' and the 'I' aside it would works as it suppose to be.
    Then it gives me the answer to my question: socialism is not bad... we just don't know how to put it in practice... or maybe we know how to do it but we just don't want to...
    yeah, we could make it work if everyone was the same person and their was no freewill in people, we all walked the same, talked the same, and so on and so on. We people are individuals, why do you think their is a democratic and republican party, we people are different from each other, we come from different backgrounds, and different ethnicties. what makes people think that we can all sit down and agree on the same thing without debating about, we are not machines, each person has their own unique brain which is why we have those dreamers who invent those great tech, those people who are great leaders, and people who can play a sport or skill better then other people. If we got rid of those attributes in each person the progression will never take place because why would we need to See a Change when their is no one to see a need or argue for that change that is what you are asking from a socialist system.

    I know that your views won't change about capitalism, vice versa my views about socialism, but that is what it is to debate and discuss. that is why I wanted to add my own spin about why socialism will never work. because eventually a corrupt individual will gain power in one and will never give up that power and will only seek puppet votes in order to stay in power (looking at you Hugo Chavez). That is why I am just sitting back and watching the so called "change" here in the US, and what they say they are going to do. so far all they have done is change the amount of the debt and spend more money to spend more money (don't cry when the dollar is weaker). Alexander Hamilton must be spinning in his grave right now, but hey, we are in the middle of a a socailist idealist president, so let's just see how great socialism is, after all, that is the change we are seeing now.

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  8. #22
    Learn, live, laugh, GROW 5 Card Draw Champion, Bubble Trouble Champion, Connect 4 Champion, Long Jump Champion, Collapse Champion, BALLZ! Champion, Rotamania Champion, Rotations Champion, Hishi Champion, Domino Pressure Champion, Fun_game1 Champion, Road Blocks Champion, Puzzle Maniax Champion, Cloud Breakout Champion lebasiara may be famous one day lebasiara's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna View Post
    That is even worse then the 9.30% quote I found, not better.

    ??? Here? Where and what did those numbers come from?


    The "real" socialism doesn't exist because of being human. Until you can have a society were every single person thinks more of others then themselves it never will.... start holding your breath.
    Note to clearify: I never said Costa Rica was a socialistic country, I said it has a socialistic idea with the universal health care. I am sorry if I didn't explain myself.

    in order Arianna:
    1 I know it is not better, not proud of it but I won't hide the truth (who would I fool? no one but myself if I do that), that was the actual update the govt say its working on it...

    2. it did happen... to me... I had a test at a hospital that I didn't want to do because I couldn't afford it and it was by my doctor's insistance that I did it... and yeah... I was "covered" by my insurance... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.... (long story short)

    3. Still... then socialism is not that bad... it will never happen though because of our human nature... sadly.....

    Franco:

    Yes, I will not change my views about capitalism and I wasn't trying to get anyone to change its views, before I made this thread I knew I would have confrontation and more likely a lot of people in disagreenment... but as you say that's why it is a debate and discuss thing... I like to hear... read... people's thougths on topics like this... I like also to be heard (or read for that matter) that's whyh my thougths are here as well...
    anyways back to topic...
    Lenin on the old USSR was a good example (among others) about how a good idea like socialism is never going to work in reality... but as I said the idea, the actual idea in paper is not bad...
    yes we all are different, and I wouldn't like a society where we are alike, differnce is fun... but it would be better if all that would come into a common ground. I explain myself: where you and I can tolerate each other and help each other in despite of our differences. We could avoid wars... even famines and epidemies if we would care for others instead of 'me'....

    I was watching a movie (forgot the name) about how protestants were shut down and mistreates when they rose agaist the abuses of the World Chamber of commerce (which is enforced by capitalism and more)... this chamber is mostly formed by rich and high people who are more interested to get and get rather than to work for the common good of people, and if someone speaks up for the people they are quiet down... it 'pushes' down the 'third world countries' and lifts up higher the already high countries..... there are still promises they did (thanks to the people who rose their voice) that are not even being looked at...
    That's why I am agaist capitalism because it takes care of the interest of few rather than the good for the bunch...
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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Once again, I will point out that the free heath care is still one of the single most biggest drain, yes it is a Socialistic value in a Capitalistic society of Costa Rica, how ever but that DOES NOT mean Socialism works, we have given you many example as to why it does not, even taking example from Costa Rica which you your self has brought up, which we have used as well and its past to prove that it does not work. You said you’re self that Costa Rica is not Socialistic but has few Socialistic values, and that Costa Rica is in fact Capitalistic, yet you are using it as an example to say Socialism can work/isn’t bad. So how can you use it as a point of reference to indicate Socialism works and is good when its past that Arrianna has pointed out that when Costa Rica became Socialistic they were collapsing under their own weight and had to revert back to Capitalism which my self and others have elaborated on and yet you still say Socialism can work and is good when the proof is right in front of you in your own country that it does not because Socialism almost completely ruined Costa Rica who then had to go back to Capitalism to save them selves and you still disagree with Capitalism even though it saved your country from ruin... That’s like taking down a bridge that has worked fine for years and then structurally compromise it by making it bigger and bigger to support more and more people while also making the workers who maintain the bridge get paid less with no reason to better them selves because they can't and there are no incentives to yet you expect them to work even harder to maintain a bridge that keeps getting bigger and bigger to support more people day by day until it collapses or about to under its own weight which forces you to go back to the old bridge that has worked for you for years and returned the ability of the workers to better them selves by giving them the opportunity to earn more by working harder. Then you turn around and say the ridiculously huge bridge works and is good and better then the old bridge even though it was falling apart and it was by going back to the old bridge system that ended up saving you. Yes you still have your big bridge but its not a ridiculously huge bridge any more and it is the workers who maintain that big bridge who are able to because they have an incentive to but because the bridge is still to big and it is a HUGE drain on you to support. But you still say the ridiculously huge bridge still works even though it failed... Does that make sense at all, because to me that sounds very contradictory to the truth?

    I am sorry but your foundation of supporting Socialism is as unstable as the rediculously huge bridge that Socialism is.
    Like Franko, I am not trying to change your mind and love Capitalism, but just so you know that Capitalism is still better then Socialism.
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  11. #24
    Lady Barronmore Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna has become well known Arrianna's Avatar
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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by lebasiara View Post
    3. Still... then socialism is not that bad... it will never happen though because of our human nature... sadly.....
    Not quite. Socialism is bad because human nature will find a way to abuse it and it is a system that lends itself to those same abuses. When human nature changes then that will change and no sooner. Feel free to look forward to it just don't make the mistake of thinking it is possible now.

    The other problem with socialism as it is practiced is that it removes choice from people. In order for socialism to be "true" everyone would not only have to choose to live it but have the right to choose what they need and don't need and do so unselfishly without anyone telling them to especially the government. Now tell me when that will happen?


    Quote Originally Posted by lebasiara View Post
    That's why I am agaist capitalism because it takes care of the interest of few rather than the good for the bunch...
    You are making the classic mistake of confusing legal systems with societal obligations. Capitalism is perfect because it frees a society to fulfill their obligations to each other or not as they wish. You cannot legislate charity and compassion or you end up with neither as "big brother" decides who is worthy or not and what you will and will not do, legislating individuals into mere numbers and statistics. However in a capitalistic society those who can then decide if they will be charitable and compassionate. The societies where they choose not to be fall as their foundation rots and those who choose to be raise themselves up to greatness.

    Like all things in life you must have opposition or you have nothing. A chance to succeed also requires a chance to fail. We just have to be willing to accept the consequences and help each other out by our own choice.

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