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Thread: Socialism... is it really that bad?

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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by lebasiara View Post
    Yes, I will not change my views about capitalism and I wasn't trying to get anyone to change its views, before I made this thread I knew I would have confrontation and more likely a lot of people in disagreenment... but as you say that's why it is a debate and discuss thing... I like to hear... read... people's thougths on topics like this... I like also to be heard (or read for that matter) that's whyh my thougths are here as well...
    anyways back to topic...
    Lenin on the old USSR was a good example (among others) about how a good idea like socialism is never going to work in reality... but as I said the idea, the actual idea in paper is not bad...
    yes we all are different, and I wouldn't like a society where we are alike, differnce is fun... but it would be better if all that would come into a common ground. I explain myself: where you and I can tolerate each other and help each other in despite of our differences. We could avoid wars... even famines and epidemies if we would care for others instead of 'me'....

    I was watching a movie (forgot the name) about how protestants were shut down and mistreates when they rose agaist the abuses of the World Chamber of commerce (which is enforced by capitalism and more)... this chamber is mostly formed by rich and high people who are more interested to get and get rather than to work for the common good of people, and if someone speaks up for the people they are quiet down... it 'pushes' down the 'third world countries' and lifts up higher the already high countries..... there are still promises they did (thanks to the people who rose their voice) that are not even being looked at...
    That's why I am agaist capitalism because it takes care of the interest of few rather than the good for the bunch...
    If you really want to know about socialism, then go ready the Communist Manifesto, and read what Marx and Ingals called for socialism to win, they don't call for all this cutesy flowery peace that will happen if socialism to take affect. It calls for violent revolution in which the bour. dies and is murdered by the working class, and then everything will be fine. That is what socialism is, instead of rewarding people for working hard or for having a successful business, we will take that extra money and give it to everyone else, were is peace in that. Socialism goes against human nature, like I said it will never work, yeah it might look pretty on paper, but that is all it will ever look like, at least with capitalism you get results.

    The video you are talking about is about the World Trade Organization (WTO), and they were not all peaceful and they asking for that treatment by the cops (tear gasing) because they were destroying property (ie Nike store), so don't make it sound like the poor protestors were treated unjustly because they were provoking the cops, also if they were so innocent then why did they have gas masks or thing to fight against the gas, these were no Ghandis, so I don't feel sorry for them, they got what they deserved, I was forced to watch this video in high school and was told how bad the WTO is, then I learned the truth behind those protestors and how the video (just like PETA) only showed one side of the story. That is why I really dispise socialism because every liberal minded teacher/professor will fill me up with these lies to make it look like this great thing that will save the world, when historically proving that it is a utter failure that is more corrupt then capitalism, and is more trouble then what it's worth, why do you think that doctor and patients come to the US for medicine? if the countries that have universal health care are great then why does this occur? stop watching Sicko, and look at the events around you, because some times the best way to get the truth is to go out their and look for it yourself. that is why I don't watch the news because I would rather watch the event then be told how I should think about, like I said i am an individual and i don't need to be told what to do, and why i don't expect you to change your mind, I have had discussions with college professor and almost made them cry who still to this day are still trying to sell me crazy when all I do is slam the door on their face or spray them with the hose to get them off my lawn (meaning I talk back and make them retreat), I am not buying or selling, i am just discussing and debating.

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  3. #26
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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tula View Post
    ^ wow. You guys really know how to debate.

    Socialism could work but it's flawed.
    Socialism promotes quantity as opposed to quality and in many fields of study, services, etc. quality regardless of how much time it takes is key.
    Aside from that most normal people are competitive. If you take competition out of the work place there is no drive to actually do the job.

    That's my take.
    Capitalism has its flaws too. But capitalism has advance due to a certain level of greed, while socialism fails because of greed--in my opinion. It's like Arrianna said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna View Post
    It's the lowest common denominator.
    Capitalism also has its own lowest common denominator. Those who are willing to do all they can to make sure the government takes care of them financially. "I'm too lazy to work to support my kids, so I'll get welfare, then buy a bunch of sh*t for myself, then worry about the ankle-biters," or, "I'm gonna feign some sort of crazy disorder in order to get SSI." Not all people are like that but we've got them out there. There are those who do truly deserve it, I know a few. But, I can walk from one end of Minneapolis to the other and point out at least 1,000 people who are capable of working but chose to let the government work for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna
    You can either have equality of opportunity or equality of results. Capitalism is equality of opportunity and Socialism is equality of results.

    The problem with equality of results is that since it is impossible to raise someone up who is unwilling to put in the effort or lacks the ability you have to go down to the lowest common denominator. What you end up with isn't everyone working together for the "common good" but those who are willing to be the lowest common denominator living off of the government. Everyone else then is punished if they want to do more in order to bring them down to that level.

    Imagine that someone tells you what you can buy, wear, say, and do and you have socialism.

    On top of that it is a system that lends it's self to corruption like few others. Someone has to be in charge of the distribution and in socialism those people have ALL the power. Power to control others and demand their actions at your whim. Now think about the kind of people attracted to that kind of power and how Socialism actually works will make more sense.
    Much agreed. I'd rather have equality of opportunity than equality of results. If everybody works for an equal amount of pay to achieve an equal result, then who's to say that said equal result will be the DESIRED result? If doctors, scientists and lawyers are makin' what I'd make on unemployment, or what you'd make at Wendy's; then why would they want to work to their full potential? The result may be equal in socialism, but it more than likely is a crappy result.


  4. #27
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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by atomik_sprout View Post


    Capitalism has its flaws too. But capitalism has advance due to a certain level of greed, while socialism fails because of greed--in my opinion. It's like Arrianna said:



    Capitalism also has its own lowest common denominator. Those who are willing to do all they can to make sure the government takes care of them financially. "I'm too lazy to work to support my kids, so I'll get welfare, then buy a bunch of sh*t for myself, then worry about the ankle-biters," or, "I'm gonna feign some sort of crazy disorder in order to get SSI." Not all people are like that but we've got them out there. There are those who do truly deserve it, I know a few. But, I can walk from one end of Minneapolis to the other and point out at least 1,000 people who are capable of working but chose to let the government work for them.



    Much agreed. I'd rather have equality of opportunity than equality of results. If everybody works for an equal amount of pay to achieve an equal result, then who's to say that said equal result will be the DESIRED result? If doctors, scientists and lawyers are makin' what I'd make on unemployment, or what you'd make at Wendy's; then why would they want to work to their full potential? The result may be equal in socialism, but it more than likely is a crappy result.
    The wellfair part is actually some what of a socialistic practice we have going, how ever the difference is that its not granted to every one and only a select few or at least it should be those who actually deserve it, also its not directly in the hand of the Gov. but rather privet instatutions for the most part that work with Gov. So actually it isant as Capatalistic as you think, nore is it Socialistic, but rather something in between. Even then though, its still a big drain but no where near as big as a Socialistic which is free and universal which is controled by Gov. which then screws every one over.

    Thats why no one here said Capatalism is perfect, we have all been saying that its just WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better then Socialism.

    But yes, I agree with you there Radioactive Sprout.
    Last edited by Scourge; Jun 09, 2009 at 03:53 PM.
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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by lebasiara View Post
    Socialism has been banned and criticized so many times and capitalism has been praised and blah blah... but... is socialism really that bad?
    With capitalism yes people get the chance to get "ahead" and have more and better things for them.... moire and more things are produced... many of them things that people don't really need... but... in order for others to get money they have to sell... right? even if that means selling things that people don't need and don't help at all.... everything is about money money money and how I can get more and more to have more.... very productive....
    Wouldn't it be better if everyone was at the same level? with no one higher or lower than the other? where the most important thing is your fellow and not how much you make? Wouldn't it be better if everyone would work for a common cause? this being to make the country progress as a whole? Where your basic needs are covered without getting worried about the high bills?
    I look at the health services for example.... there is a lot of people here in the US who don't go to the doctor even if they need it because they can't afford it...
    wouldn't it be better if that service was provided with little or no cost because everyone needs to be healthy in order to produce for the county? where everyone works for the benefit of the community and not for its selfish desires.... I dream about that world, I dream about it... and it doesn't seem that bad... socialism after all for me doesn't seem that bad... what do you think?
    ok. here's what i have to say aboout the system of socialism. as you know already what it is. but you have to realize that people are people. that will never work. there's always going to be people who want to be better and want more. tat's just how we are created to thrive to be the best that we fcan be. I mean yea it sounds like a good idea but look into the past at all the other times siimilar practices have failed. Stalin and Russia for example. Stalin believed that Russia needed to be a fascist society so that everyone could be equal and work for the better of the state. But as you might not know, this caused alot of problems internally and externally. First of all he went crazy with power and started trying to protect his own power from god knows what. Then other countries and rulers like hitler and mussolini wanted to stop him because they did not like his form of gov't at all.
    what i'm trying to get at is that you really ca't restraint people. We're not meant to be restraint. We were created to be the best we can be and socialism would basically be a step down from what we are driving for.
    Nothing was perfect, nothing is perfect, nothing will ever be perfect. If god wanted us to be perfect we wouldn't hav gone through all the hard times to get to this time where everybody is somewhat truly free to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
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  6. #29
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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by manlock32 View Post
    ok. here's what i have to say aboout the system of socialism. as you know already what it is. but you have to realize that people are people. that will never work. there's always going to be people who want to be better and want more. tat's just how we are created to thrive to be the best that we fcan be. I mean yea it sounds like a good idea but look into the past at all the other times siimilar practices have failed. Stalin and Russia for example. Stalin believed that Russia needed to be a fascist society so that everyone could be equal and work for the better of the state. But as you might not know, this caused alot of problems internally and externally. First of all he went crazy with power and started trying to protect his own power from god knows what. Then other countries and rulers like hitler and mussolini wanted to stop him because they did not like his form of gov't at all.
    Sorry dude, but Stalin wasn't a fascist, he was a communist, their is a difference between a Fascist and a communist, A fascist is a highly nationalistic form of socialism, except that it only promotes the strong (elites), and only one race as the superior to all races, (Nazis, Mussolini, and even the Japanese back in world war II could be considered fascist states (old creed was "asia for asian's" meaning the Japanese, go look at the massacre of Nanjing)). Communism is a more Russian style of socialism in which the idea of a world wide socialist movement will come, however instead of letting the people live equally, they instilled a red state into the gov't in which only the communist will retain power, and only a elite few were allowed to rule the gov't. Stalin actions could be traced back into the Russian tsars like Ivan the Terrible, but he was a communist, just that he loved the power more than the idea of "equality" for all which is why he did things, not for nationalism like the fascist, but for himself. Also the reason why the fascist hated the USSR was because they felt that the bloodline for these people were unpure, like the jews mixing with them (mein kampf (hitlers book about his idea about fascistism)) because leon trotsky had an jewish anse. and they pick up on the idea of communism as a jewish invention and so that was another reason why hitler hated communism, beside your other reason I just wanted to show you that their were other reasons why they saw the USSR as a threat, and why Stalin (who is a georgian not a russian) wasn't a fascist, but a brutal dictator who took advantage of a system that was supposed to start a utopia, but instead created a reign of terror that could be compared to hitler, two men with the same lust of power who were never going to get along, but did whatever was necessary to achieve that goal.

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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Sorry dude, but Stalin wasn't a fascist, he was a communist, their is a difference between a Fascist and a communist,
    The only difference between a Fascist and a Communist is the reason they use for doing the exact same thing.

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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrianna View Post
    The only difference between a Fascist and a Communist is the reason they use for doing the exact same thing.
    Yes, however once a corrupt individual gets involved with communism, does this hold true. the core value of communism like I said before is this idea of a world wide violent revolution, that will lead to a "true" socialist state for all of mankind. that is the difference right their because the idea is to incorporate the whole world, the idea behind fascism is to only promote one race, one nation, that is the core belief of fascism. they don't believe in friendship because it goes against their nature because they can only be friends with themselves, because unless you belong to that race you will never be truely safe from a fascist b/c you will always be a lower life compared to them. the reason way communism failed was because you had a single group ruling everything and so how could one argue or critized a group if the are exiled, exacuted, or imprisoned. also because their core belief calls for no gov't and that the people will take care of each other, this idea was never realized because it was impossible for a group to not have some kind of gov't, and so when the communist realized that they had control of the country, why turn it over to the people, you have to realize that in russia that the majority of people lived on farm lands, not in cities, and that the communists were intellectuals who believed that the revolution was for the city works, ie themselves, which is why they wanted to remain in control because they believed that they knew what was the best for these poor/uneducated people and like lenin had said, he believed that it will take sometime for the world wide revolution to occur then what was originally expected, that is why they also felt that it was necessary for them to keep the power. but like that saying goes absolute power corrupts absolutly, which is why you see the leaders after lenin becoming more protective of that power and in some cases being forcibly removed by other communist. I just finished taking a class on russian history so I can say more but it will be really boring to go more into detail, but their is a big difference between the two, but let me end with a question, why do you think that the two biggest capitalist countries joined forces with the biggest communist country at that time? it wasn't because they wanted to have a party that was bigger then the axis, they both knew that their was something more dangerous then each other, and that was fascism, the group that wants to kill everyone who is not one of them, heck they would have killed each other (axis) to be the one and only true race, that is the difference.

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    Re: Socialism... is it really that bad?

    Be that as it may in reality it ends up the same. Whether it is Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco or Stalin, Lenin, and Mao Tse-tung they all involved a Totalitarian government that had no problem expanding through conquest.

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