Suicide

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Originally Posted by Tula

^ now I've gotta switch tactics.

The majority of individuals that commit suicide are individuals who in life were clinically diagnosed with depression.
Depression is defined as a mental illness that can be caused by more than 1 reason.
Of all individuals clinically diagnosed with depression less than 100% commit suicide. Of those that do not commit suicide, there are individuals that never contemplate or consider suicide.

If we assume that all of those organizations dedicated to gathering data and research on depression and or the human brain, were not doling out incorrect information to the masses, then it is also safe to assume the information released by these organizations (NIH, CDC, APA, and many others) holds some tidbit of truth.
For as long as I can remember, it was said (or suggested) that depression can be treated in one way or another, and should be treated because of the seriousness of the symptoms which often include but are not limited to suicide / suicidal thoughts / suicidal tendencies.
This is the information that is fed to the general public by many healthcare proffesionals and organizations that gather data and or research depression (and the human brain).

I imagine, you like many others for some reason or other believe suicide is wrong either because of religious reasons and or you are convinced that it is not normal. (The thoughts and tendencies often associated with those that are depressed are not behaviors exhibited by normal every day average Joe people)
If it is because of the latter, have you ever wondered why?
Seriously I wonder why there exists in the world people like you.

From my stand point there is NOTHING, not a single bit of research, not at least one healthcare proffesional or organization that can prove that depression is a mental disorder that must be treated.
If all individuals clinicially diagnosed with depression do not commit suicide, then there is no obvious evidence that would suggest that depression is a trait amongst the human populous that should be weeded out. And infact there are kinds of depression such as SAD (Seasonal Affective Depression) that would indicate that depression is a normal occurrence in response to certain stimuli or in this case the lack of stimuli (light).
If for any instance it is normal to be depressed, who is it to say that the symptoms including but not limited to suicide (and things related to it) are not normal?
Again, I reiterate there is no sound proof that depression is an abnormality that must go treated.

Earlier I argued that people are free to choose suicide for whatever reason they have.
I will also argue as well then that for individuals that are diagnosed as depressed either clinically or by self diagnosis, they are free to seek help if they wish.
But is depression really an abnormality?

There is no cause and effect correlation between depression and suicide. There is nothing that will say or prove with absolute certainty that depression unless treated will lead to suicide.
Sure there is some evidence to suggest why depression occurs, modern science has shown differences in brain activity between those that are depressed and those that aren't, as well as studies that can prove marked differences betwen the brainsof individuals that did commit suicide and those that died by some other cause; but there is nothing to indicate that it is incorrect.

So why does there exist in the world people like you that believe suicide is wrong or not normal?

If you can provide a valid arguement for why you think suicide is wrong or unnecessary, then I'll agree with you that individuals contemplating suicide need help and need to be talked out of a choice that is theirs to make.

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whoa, whoa, I am not seeking your approval or anyone elses, like I said, if you don't agree with me then that is fine, I am not trying to beat you over the head with a self-rightous stick and say that I am better than you nor am I saying that you have to do what I say. all I am saying is that we need to help these people, you don't have to take what I say to heart, this is my own personal opinion. I never once mentioned anything about depression, then you toss it in to try to prove the point about choices, and I am not buying, I can tell you that I was depressed and was put into a corner when I felt like killing myself. but like I said I choose life, and I did not share that because of my football coach and that near death experience I was able to get out of that mind set and move on. the near-death experience help me realize I had a problem and football help me gain a firm grasp on it and get out of it.

also I never once mention my religious belief nor did I stress any point about it and so why are you attacking my values and beliefs, because they differ from yours? yes, I have a religion and yes I am proud of it, but I never allowed that view to corrupt this thread, I could have easily said anything about how religion views this topic, but I felt it was not necessay. and so I just posted my own experiences about it and why I believe we should help these people. so why are you targeting how you put it, "So why does there exist in the world people like you?" gee I don't know why people like "me" exist in the world, but the same question could be asked about people like you too? I don't like putting labels on people nor do I like the fact that someone expresses their own melicious hate on someone because they don't agree with each other, but hey, that is how people like "me" always think about, right, we have our God, values, belief's, faith, and morals, and as long as we spit non-sense that is just fine, right. If you hate religion and religious people, that is on you, but I won't allow someone like you to sit their and judge someone that you don't even know and label on their faith and religious beliefs because you disagree with them. if you are someone who values choice so much, then why don't you value the choice for someone to be religious, you are being spitful by saying those words, which just doesn't want me to continue to debate with you on this topic because that is low to strike and label someone like that. like I said, I agree to disagree, and I thought we were pretty civil until I read this response, and so I will not respond to you any more on this topic, that doesn't mean that I conceed to you, just that this is going beyond a civil debate and I won't be apart of it because I don't want to see either of us to get into trouble, and so I will be seeing you around in the forum, hopefully it will be civilized next time we debate.

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Originally Posted by CBtay01

OK so i have thought and thought and thought about this is suicide acceptable? i mean it is portrayed as OK in so many anime and in real life it is both hated and liked and sometimes even accepted but really do you think it is OK??????

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In anime, suicide is portrayed as okay? Is that really true? I know in that in times of ancient Japan with samurais that people believed in the “seppuku” method. I mean that has to do with honor and rather killing one’s self rather than being taken down by the enemy. But I think that a life is a terrible thing to waste.

We only get one chance in life. I am not entirely sure about the whole reincarnation concept be true or not, but enjoying each moment of your life is very important. For the most part, no matter how many second chances of living you might receive, you can’t relive the same exact event that you had experienced in your previous life. So technically, the life we live is special and irreplaceable when it comes down it. Although everyone doesn’t get to live all the same experiences in life as someone else, we need to learn to live life with what we are given even if it’s not that much.

Self-pity and misfortune cannot be completely avoided, but since when was life perfect. We need to embrace the people that mean the most to us. Being with the ones we care about and time will help mend the pain that dwells in us all. There are even some people in the world who have worse life experiences and they still live for the future. To deny the opportunities that lie ahead for each of us only means we have given up our dreams. We also need to consider whose lives were greatly impacted due to this decision.

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Originally Posted by Arrianna

If they are out of their mind what legal right do they have to make that decision? Last I checked people who are legitimately insane don't have any legal rights to make decisions anyway concerning anything let alone that.



And who gets to decide that? What right do they have to do so? Give me sources and legal rights that say you personally, or anyone/everyone else does.


And now we're at that 6 year old mentality. "I can do it cause I wanna!" You know when my child says that I send him to his room.

As for it happening anyway that has nothing to do with whether or not you have a right to. Based on that everything from rape to embezzlement would be a right as well, they happen anyway. Try again. Source of right please.

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sorry i havent been on for a while just graded lol any ways where was i oh yeah


wheather we like it or not people do it and if people can be put on life suppport they have a choice to be taken off so if someone say if they are on pills and they are on"life support " what if they really want to end it what if for them this so called "life" isnt what they want and seriously whos to say that there isnt a better world after we die huh?

just my thoughts, but isnt joining the military kinda like a form of suicide? if someone wants to fight in a war and knows that they are going to die for their country... then basically they chose to die. but i have the most respect for those people and i think everyone else should respect them to.

I agree. If you join the military there is an extremely good possibility you would die if you were in a war.

Suicide is the cowards way out. So you screwed up in life. what of it, you can fix it. droped out of high school, get a G.E.D. Don't know where your life is going. Go to collage or the military like the rest of the world. Broken up with a cheap fluzzy. Get a few drinks, $500 in cash and go to the cornner. But sucide is PATHEDIC. Live your life. and I can almost garentee you. tomarrow is another day, and that the world will get a tid bit better at a time.

i agree with most of that, but there are some people that are in so much pain that they think it would be better to not feel at all. i guess you can never really know unless your in that much pain.

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Originally Posted by 31 Bravo

Suicide is the cowards way out. So you screwed up in life. what of it, you can fix it. droped out of high school, get a G.E.D. Don't know where your life is going. Go to collage or the military like the rest of the world. Broken up with a cheap fluzzy. Get a few drinks, $500 in cash and go to the cornner. But sucide is PATHEDIC. Live your life. and I can almost garentee you. tomarrow is another day, and that the world will get a tid bit better at a time.

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I think it was decided that suicide is not always a coward's way out. In some cases it could very well be heroic.

You can't say "DON'T commit suicide" and then say "Join the military." To my knowledge, Uncle Sam wants your life. He'd prefer not to have it but on the battle field. . . . it's like visa, accepted everywhere.
As for college. . . . I'd drop out if it weren't for the fact that I've been at this too damn long and don't want the last few years of my laugh to have been all for nothing.
Do you have any idea how expensive college costs have gone up int he past few years? For what most colleges want, the average joe can definitely afford to be stupid. That (and some other things) is reason enough to not go and in some cases not to even graduate high school. (What's the point if you're not gonna go to college?)

As for the last bit . . SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.
I know there's supposed to be some sort of silver lining to everything but for tons of people out there, you go through the day doing whatever it is you do, pray tomorrow isn't worse, repeat.
You have no idea how unsatisfying aspects of everyday life can be for some people.

now to address Franco . . . :rolleyes1: :smile:

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Originally Posted by Franco

whoa, whoa, I am not seeking your approval or anyone elses, like I said, if you don't agree with me then that is fine, I am not trying to beat you over the head with a self-rightous stick and say that I am better than you nor am I saying that you have to do what I say. all I am saying is that we need to help these people, you don't have to take what I say to heart, this is my own personal opinion. I never once mentioned anything about depression, then you toss it in to try to prove the point about choices, and I am not buying, I can tell you that I was depressed and was put into a corner when I felt like killing myself. but like I said I choose life, and I did not share that because of my football coach and that near death experience I was able to get out of that mind set and move on. the near-death experience help me realize I had a problem and football help me gain a firm grasp on it and get out of it.

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You don't need my approval.
I don't need your approval.
Those that are considering suicide don't need our approval and probably don't care what we have to say in the confines of this thread. I'd like to hope you agree with me and that if you did you would also understand why even if they wanted help then and only then it would be ok to offer it.

As for depression. . . it worked.
You yourself prove it.
You were depressed you had suicidal thoughts etc. . . .
My point was that if the cause for suicide shouldn't and or didn't need to be fixed why did the symptom?
I think it's fine you yourself didn't commit suicide and were able to overcome your problems. But that's not always the case.

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Originally Posted by Franco

also I never once mention my religious belief nor did I stress any point about it and so why are you attacking my values and beliefs, because they differ from yours? yes, I have a religion and yes I am proud of it, but I never allowed that view to corrupt this thread, I could have easily said anything about how religion views this topic, but I felt it was not necessay. and so I just posted my own experiences about it and why I believe we should help these people. so why are you targeting how you put it, "So why does there exist in the world people like you?" gee I don't know why people like "me" exist in the world, but the same question could be asked about people like you too? I don't like putting labels on people nor do I like the fact that someone expresses their own melicious hate on someone because they don't agree with each other, but hey, that is how people like "me" always think about, right, we have our God, values, belief's, faith, and morals, and as long as we spit non-sense that is just fine, right.

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I never attacked you or your beliefs on the basis of religion. Actually I didn't attack you at all.
Please feel free to voice your opinions though on what religious denominations feel about suicide. I'll tell you the same thing I told Ari :D:

I most certainly have no idea why there are people that think the way you do in the world. I'm almost certain I and others like me exist to give balance to the world :p1:;):

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Originally Posted by Franco

If you hate religion and religious people, that is on you, but I won't allow someone like you to sit their and judge someone that you don't even know and label on their faith and religious beliefs because you disagree with them. if you are someone who values choice so much, then why don't you value the choice for someone to be religious, you are being spitful by saying those words, which just doesn't want me to continue to debate with you on this topic because that is low to strike and label someone like that. like I said, I agree to disagree, and I thought we were pretty civil until I read this response, and so I will not respond to you any more on this topic, that doesn't mean that I conceed to you, just that this is going beyond a civil debate and I won't be apart of it because I don't want to see either of us to get into trouble, and so I will be seeing you around in the forum, hopefully it will be civilized next time we debate.

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There are so many things to address i almost don't know where to begin.

I am not judging you. I think that in regards to this topic you're ignoring certain key points but . . . .
I do value choice. I neither respect or disrespect your right to choose a religious belief. I simply don't care one way or another.
I only mentioned religion as a possibility for why you (and at least one other) think suicide is wrong.
By no means did I mean for that one small segment of my arguement to be interpretted so offensively by your or anyone else.
But in hindsight, and going by your reaction, I'd like to think I was right in my predictions about you and religion. And you already proved that indeed you do have religion and for whatever religion you affiliate yourself with, there obviously does exist sins and punishment for suicide.

I highlighted the word civil because I am a human being not a civilized creature.
As for you not responding anymore on this topic. . . . .
Mods just look the other way :rolleyes1:

 click to show spoiler

What kind of thing is that to say? Please don't tell me this was an attempt at a threat? It lacks substenance on so many planes of existence that I can't believe you'd actually say something like that. Am I supposed to say "I am SO sorry. I'll never do it again. I promise. Please, still be my friend.
(For the record that would never happen and even if I did, just cite this post now as reference for when I do it again int he future, cause I know it'll happen again.)

as for getting into trouble. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Trouble is like a fine alcoholic beverage, the more the merrier. :2thumbs:

Civlized. Debate. Civilized. Debate. Civilized debate? No that doesn't sound right either.
If you don't respond to this post. . . . maybe eventually I'll see you around the forums.
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