Thread: Suicide

Originally Posted by Franco

Yes but you were stressing the fact that the choice will not yield a consequence to the individual (except death), and that the idea of suicide will not be a big factor to the world or anyone around them, that is why I responded on what I quoted from your post, I don't care if the individual thinks they have the option, like I said the person is not in the right mind set when they think that suicide is the only option, that is why it should not be a option, and why we should prevent it from happening.

Well obviously there would be a consequence.
And the only thing I meant to stress was that the individuals (if any) affected aren't of any real large significance in the grand scheme of things.

And this is where we diverge. . .
Any individual always has that option.

And who's to say that a person contemplating suicide isn't in the right mindset?
Assuming they aren't in the right mindset, they could seek help, counseling, advice, etc. If afterwardds they feel as though it's the right choice, on what basis can you, I, anyone else stop them?
"I'm sorry we cannot let you commit suicide. You're simply not in the right mindset and lack qualifications to make those sorts of decisions about your life. Here's a pamphlet on how to deal with stress so thatyou may feel better about living. If that doesn't work, well my dear, there's always anti-depressants"

yep . . .

Originally Posted by Tula

Well obviously there would be a consequence.
And the only thing I meant to stress was that the individuals (if any) affected aren't of any real large significance in the grand scheme of things.

And this is where we diverge. . .
Any individual always has that option.

And who's to say that a person contemplating suicide isn't in the right mindset?
Assuming they aren't in the right mindset, they could seek help, counseling, advice, etc. If afterwardds they feel as though it's the right choice, on what basis can you, I, anyone else stop them?
"I'm sorry we cannot let you commit suicide. You're simply not in the right mindset and lack qualifications to make those sorts of decisions about your life. Here's a pamphlet on how to deal with stress so thatyou may feel better about living. If that doesn't work, well my dear, there's always anti-depressants"

yep . . .

Or their is this option or this option, etc. If you don't try to help someone because, "oh, I can't change their mind or force them to stop it so why even try?" again it sounds like that point of view of why bother doing anything if in the end it will happen. people who are suicidal do not seek help (or at least I didn't), suicidual thought could have many factors and reasons for wanting to die. If people get involve such as being a friend or consuling them that could help them, or like you said they could be hopitalized or be given treatment, what it took for me to knock that nonsense out of my head was a near death experience, I was 1/2 hour away from my appendix exploding and it took the knowledge of knowing that I can die from this to realized just how stupid I had been and realize that I want to live, and just how scary it is to know that I could die. like I said the person has to realize just stupid it is, and that it can take a event or people around you to break that thought, but don't you ever give up before you try because that is the same as killing them because you don't know that you could of been that factor in helping them, that is why suicide should never be the option and that we should help them any chance we get.

Originally Posted by Franco

Or their is this option or this option, etc. If you don't try to help someone because, "oh, I can't change their mind or force them to stop it so why even try?" again it sounds like that point of view of why bother doing anything if in the end it will happen. people who are suicidal do not seek help (or at least I didn't), suicidual thought could have many factors and reasons for wanting to die. If people get involve such as being a friend or consuling them that could help them, or like you said they could be hopitalized or be given treatment, what it took for me to knock that nonsense out of my head was a near death experience, I was 1/2 hour away from my appendix exploding and it took the knowledge of knowing that I can die from this to realized just how stupid I had been and realize that I want to live, and just how scary it is to know that I could die. like I said the person has to realize just stupid it is, and that it can take a event or people around you to break that thought, but don't you ever give up before you try because that is the same as killing them because you don't know that you could of been that factor in helping them, that is why suicide should never be the option and that we should help them any chance we get.

if someone chooses to die and do not want help or advice, it is no one else's place to say no you shouldn't do that for whatever reason.

Originally Posted by Tula

if someone chooses to die and do not want help or advice, it is no one else's place to say no you shouldn't do that for whatever reason.

which is why we will continue to disagree with each other, but that is what it is to debate and discuss, people have different views and opinions, which is why we won't see everything eye to eye, so if you believe that it's no ones business, then hey that is your opinion, however that doesn't mean that I have to share that same opinion, if I saw someone in trouble, I will help them no matter what (even if I get nothing out of it), that is my nature, and why I view that we should help those who want to kill themselves and not turn a blind eye and say that it's none of my business. but hey, you are entitled to your views as am I so, we agree to disagree with each other right

Originally Posted by Franco

which is why we will continue to disagree with each other, but that is what it is to debate and discuss, people have different views and opinions, which is why we won't see everything eye to eye, so if you believe that it's no ones business, then hey that is your opinion, however that doesn't mean that I have to share that same opinion, if I saw someone in trouble, I will help them no matter what (even if I get nothing out of it), that is my nature, and why I view that we should help those who want to kill themselves and not turn a blind eye and say that it's none of my business. but hey, you are entitled to your views as am I so, we agree to disagree with each other right

^ nice.

But from what I can tell you are assuming that a suicidal person is a person in need of saving. As long as you know that not everyone wants to be saved and or can be saved, you might be setting yourself up for some disappointments in life.

Originally Posted by Tula

^ nice.

But from what I can tell you are assuming that a suicidal person is a person in need of saving. As long as you know that not everyone wants to be saved and or can be saved, you might be setting yourself up for some disappointments in life.

yeah but like you said, it's my choice, and that is why I will not just sit by and watch someone destroy themselves, I might not be able to save someone who doesn't want to be saved, but it won't hurt to try. after all in high school I had a girl in my class who committed suicide, and I saw how that affected the class, her friends, and her family, so if I know someone who wants to kill themselves, I will try to help them, even if I don't succeed, at least I tried and like I said, life is hard, which is why I choose to live, so I won't have time to worry about disappointments, I don't regret anything I have done in life. Also I don't assume every suicidal person seeks help nor salvation, like I said from my own experiences, they don't ask, or want it, all I am saying is that it won't hurt to try to help them, that's all I'm saying.

Originally Posted by Franco

yeah but like you said, it's my choice, and that is why I will not just sit by and watch someone destroy themselves, I might not be able to save someone who doesn't want to be saved, but it won't hurt to try. after all in high school I had a girl in my class who committed suicide, and I saw how that affected the class, her friends, and her family, so if I know someone who wants to kill themselves, I will try to help them, even if I don't succeed, at least I tried and like I said, life is hard, which is why I choose to live, so I won't have time to worry about disappointments, I don't regret anything I have done in life. Also I don't assume every suicidal person seeks help nor salvation, like I said from my own experiences, they don't ask, or want it, all I am saying is that it won't hurt to try to help them, that's all I'm saying.

^ now I've gotta switch tactics.

The majority of individuals that commit suicide are individuals who in life were clinically diagnosed with depression.
Depression is defined as a mental illness that can be caused by more than 1 reason.
Of all individuals clinically diagnosed with depression less than 100% commit suicide. Of those that do not commit suicide, there are individuals that never contemplate or consider suicide.

If we assume that all of those organizations dedicated to gathering data and research on depression and or the human brain, were not doling out incorrect information to the masses, then it is also safe to assume the information released by these organizations (NIH, CDC, APA, and many others) holds some tidbit of truth.
For as long as I can remember, it was said (or suggested) that depression can be treated in one way or another, and should be treated because of the seriousness of the symptoms which often include but are not limited to suicide / suicidal thoughts / suicidal tendencies.
This is the information that is fed to the general public by many healthcare proffesionals and organizations that gather data and or research depression (and the human brain).

I imagine, you like many others for some reason or other believe suicide is wrong either because of religious reasons and or you are convinced that it is not normal. (The thoughts and tendencies often associated with those that are depressed are not behaviors exhibited by normal every day average Joe people)
If it is because of the latter, have you ever wondered why?
Seriously I wonder why there exists in the world people like you.

From my stand point there is NOTHING, not a single bit of research, not at least one healthcare proffesional or organization that can prove that depression is a mental disorder that must be treated.
If all individuals clinicially diagnosed with depression do not commit suicide, then there is no obvious evidence that would suggest that depression is a trait amongst the human populous that should be weeded out. And infact there are kinds of depression such as SAD (Seasonal Affective Depression) that would indicate that depression is a normal occurrence in response to certain stimuli or in this case the lack of stimuli (light).
If for any instance it is normal to be depressed, who is it to say that the symptoms including but not limited to suicide (and things related to it) are not normal?
Again, I reiterate there is no sound proof that depression is an abnormality that must go treated.

Earlier I argued that people are free to choose suicide for whatever reason they have.
I will also argue as well then that for individuals that are diagnosed as depressed either clinically or by self diagnosis, they are free to seek help if they wish.
But is depression really an abnormality?

There is no cause and effect correlation between depression and suicide. There is nothing that will say or prove with absolute certainty that depression unless treated will lead to suicide.
Sure there is some evidence to suggest why depression occurs, modern science has shown differences in brain activity between those that are depressed and those that aren't, as well as studies that can prove marked differences betwen the brainsof individuals that did commit suicide and those that died by some other cause; but there is nothing to indicate that it is incorrect.

So why does there exist in the world people like you that believe suicide is wrong or not normal?

If you can provide a valid arguement for why you think suicide is wrong or unnecessary, then I'll agree with you that individuals contemplating suicide need help and need to be talked out of a choice that is theirs to make.