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My personal opinion there hasn't been a single war the US has been involved in we needed to fight. The only exception to this would be WW2, but even then we went in with the wrong intentions... There's really no need to be in Iraq they didn't do anything to us. I also don't believe we should be in afghan at the moment, but it doesn't really matter I suppose since were there anyway...
We went into World War II for all the right reasons. In Europe, Hitler had to be stopped, because eventually Germany would have crossed the Atlantic and invaded the US Mainland, it was attack or be attacked, and don't forget that Hitler declared war on the US first (Dec 11 1941), and had also been killing American Seamen participating in the Supply Convoy's between North America and Great Britian.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiara
In Japan (Dec 7, 1941), well, that's an entirely different matter, you don't just stand back and let your country get attacked, War was just reality then.
And I do agree with you on the Iraq war, the US shouldn't even be there, but that doesn't change the fact that they are there now, and if they get pulled out 100% right now, the country would collapse into Civil war and throw the entire region into turmoil, the effects of which would be massive loss of life, and the world economy would suffer a possible killing blow (A dramatic rise in the cost of Petroleum), throwing us into a depression the likes we haven't seen since the 1930s. If you start something, finish it.
Then again Iraq isn't the U.S. if they have a civil war I don't see why the U.S. needs to be a part of it. Its not really any of the U.S. business. Its not like you see the Iraq government coming to the U.S. to save us from civil war or anything. I think were wasting U.S. money on other countries and not getting repaided for anything. Thats just how I see it though. We can't support them forever, they need to grow their own wings and fly.Quote:
Originally Posted by aceman67
No we didn't go into WW2 with the right intentions. The US went in to strut our stuff the same reason we dropped the nukes on Japan. We didn't even really want to help to begin with, but we ended up doing so in the end. I'm not going to argue that point though because it's pointless it already happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by aceman67
"In Japan (Dec 7, 1941), well, that's an entirely different matter, you don't just stand back and let your country get attacked, War was just reality then."
War is always a reality it's a part of human nature you can't escape it if you wish to have peace. Also it's good for profit so it will never go out of style no matter how wrong it is. Also I should say you would let your country get attacked at least I would if you understand what a country is. A country is a fictional entity it's made up in the mind of men, it's part of the reason there are also so many wars to begin with. A country is made up of it's citizens, but citizens are also fictional.
I should also say I'm not a pacifist I would fight when the 2 people I care about are in danger, and I'd give up my life, however there are no wars currently in place yet endangering them physically here in the USC.
One last note if you would like to see a dramatic decrease in Wars get rid of the UN. Since the manifestation of the UN in the 1940's (Side note the USC citizens fought against the UN in the 1800's and won, yet it still managed to manifest itself in the 1900's...) there has been 240+ wars global wide. That's more wars combined then all major wars combined over human history.
A country may be a "Fictional Entity made up by Man", but I got news for you: Human Civilization would not exist as it is now with out Nations. No technological advances would be made with out Nations fighting other nations. We'd be in the Caves our ancestors called home.
And with respect Kiara, I don't think you really understand the circumstances surrounding World War II. Had Germany (And their allies) or Japan not been stopped when they were, Millions more would have died. Hate war all you want, but once it starts, the only thing you are left with is to stop it, before the loss of life becomes too much.
Hindsight really is a bitch, you can say all you want now that its over, but it doesn't change the facts: Japan attacked the US unprovoked (An oil embargo is not a good reason to go to war), and Germany was steamrolling across Europe on a quest to conquer the world, while secretly committing Genocide.
The US didn't go in to "Strut their stuff", to say that is a spit on the face of those still living that served, and on the graves of those who died. They went in to stop what they saw as a threat and to put a stop to the loss of human lives before it became too great.
Learn your history a little better before you make statements like that.
The United Nations can't stop wars if one or both of the belligerent countries do not want to accept the assistance from the UN, and there's only so much an organization like the UN can do with out actually engaging in full scale armed conflict, which is the antithesis of what the UN was founded on.
ONLY 240+ wars world wide?! WOW that's a lot (/end sarcasm), too bad that doesn't even scratch the tip of the iceberg with how many wars have taken place in human history (Which spans over 10,000 years, possibly more)
Actually, it would very much become the US's problem (And the rest of the world's for that matter) if Iraq falls into Civil war, and for one primary reason: Oil. The lifeblood of the world economy. If Iraq has a Civil war, it would destablize the Middle East, where over half of the world gets their Oil, and what would happen to the price of Oil if that happens?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zev
I shutter to even think about it.
Want to get an Idea, go play "Frontline: Fuels of War". May be a video game, but that is a pretty good depiction of what our world would be like if something would happen to the worlds Oil supply.
You are correct human civilization would not be where we are now without nations. No disputing that fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by aceman67
I do understand the circumstances surrounding WW2. I said that we (USC) went into WW2 with the wrong intentions. I never said I disagree with it. I think we needed to go in when we did. (I'm not against war there just hasn't bee a war we needed to fight other then WW2 even if we went in wrong)
I'm not disagreeing with you on the hindsight part...
The soldiers had a right to go out and defend what they saw as a threat. I'm not arguing with that. There's nothing wrong with fighting for something you believe in I probably would have joined them if I was around then. We did go to prove our strength it wasn't the main reason, but it was a reason why we went in to fight. You don't have to agree with me you have a right to disagree that hasn't been taken away yet...
The UN was founded to help prevent major wars from starting like another world war. That's all that was intended as far as I know.
I guess you missed the part where I said MAJOR wars not all the minuscule ones... Oops looks like I missed a spot that should say major my bad... Obviously there's been more then 240+ wars globally, since the beginning of mankind. I meant to say major. There have been 240+ major wars since the inception of the UN which is more major wars then recorded history has shown since the beginning of human kind thus far. It's likely to change since war is always ongoing...
Also I will say I do know my history both fictional and non fictional. (I'm majoring in history for college). It's alright if you disagree with my views a lot of people do, there's only a handful of people who would agree with me fully anyway. (I like it that way :))
WWII the US was completely justified to get involved in as we were taking a stance of nutrality because we saw the war in Europe just that, another Europian war that did not involve us. How ever our Allie Britian was involved and thus sent them supplies with out actually taking part in the fighting, and despite not being in the war the US was still losing lives to it.
Japan attacked the US completely unprovoced, and then a few days later Hitler declared war on the US before we declared war on Japan or Germany. So how is it that we went in to "strut our stuff" when we did not want to get involved in it in the first place, your remarks make no sense, that statement completely bafals me at the moment. Thats like you walking down the street and then some one comes up to you and punches you in the face and respond by knocking their lights out, so how is that "struting our stuff" when getting into a fight is in self defence?
Like Ace man, I agree that war is a fact of life, now like every one else, I don't like war as much as the next person but it is necisary expecialy with Human nature being what it is.
As for the war in Iraq, in retrospect, sure we did not need to get involved but what are you suppose to think when Sadam Hussain was acting like he was hiding biological/chemicals weapons by pushing UN inspecters out of their country? Doesnt that sound suspicouse to any one? Not to mention there were many nations in the UN telling us that Iraq had these weapons and this is right after 9-11 so people are going to be paranoid and rightfully so. Of cores we all know now that we were wrong, he didnt have those weapons. But we are there now and there for must see this through other wise we wouldnt be taking responsibilty which would be ten times worse. "Oh sorry for completely beating the crap out of you, we thought you guys had WMDs, our bad, see you later." Thats EXACTLY what we are saying if we pull out.
And Zev, Ace man is right, having an area in the Middle East that provides about half of the worlds resorces to fall in diseray and chais would effect every one globaly, so it wouldnt be just the US problem, it would be every ones problem. And the same people pissed now will still be pissed, just for a different reason and that reason is because of damaging economic effects.
So people, you can hate war all you want, you can be against the war in Iraq, but the fact is we are there now and taking responsability for it, but realize that pulling out now or any time before there is relative stability with in Iraq would have a world wide consequences. But of cores no ones care about that mostly because people can't see that far a head because of their short sitedness.
Ok however the Brititsh are pulling out their soldiers because Iraq have their own policeman and and security forces to handle it. Meanwhile the U.S. is still there! If they have there own security forces and what not, they won't have a civil war. I feel like most everything that is done, is done by the U.S. not a whole lot from the other countries when it effects the whole worlds economy.
"The day before Obama's speech, Prime Minister of Iraq Nuri al-Maliki said at a press conference that the government of Iraq had "no worries" over the impending departure of U.S. forces and expressed confidence in the ability of the Iraqi Security Forces and police to maintain order without American military support.[257] Meanwhile, Britain continued its withdrawal plans, handing over control to the United States and ending combat operations on April 20, 2009.[80]"
Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia