U.S. Military

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Originally Posted by Scourge

I understand where Frozen is comming from to Atomic, the thing is though the only reason why we had weapons inspecters there in the first place are for two reasons you are over looking. 1: The creating and the use of the bio/chem weapons on innocent people to comit mass genocide which the people of the world demanded that we do something about it. 2: The Gulf war where Iraq attempted to capture and controle Kuwate, which is an allie, not just to the US, but Briton, France, Germany, Japan, and damn near every one else. Its not like we slapped all those restrictions on him with out reason, we did it because he was being a real dic-of a-tator. I am not agruing the fact that we stepped in a big steaming foul smelling pile by getting involved with Iraq, how ever it could have been avoided if we knew he didn't have bio/chem weapons if he just let the weapon inspectors do their job.
In advance, I am going to say this. Any one who takes the weapons inspector stance like atomic, here is my rebutal to it... Then he shouldnt have tried to conquer Kuwate, and he shouldnt have tried to commit mass genocide against the Curdish.

This is what frustrats me with some people, many have COMPLETELY forgoten all the events and situations that led up to this or they completely ignore it.

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Point taken. However, the battle over Kuwait and the battle in Iraq are like apples and oranges. They're two different battles with different agendas. The only thing in common is that the people who lead our troops in both wars are of the same bloodline and shared the same enemy. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Despite what I feel about our troops and the whole ordeal in Iraq, I can't say that Saddam Hussein didn't need to be dealt with. He was--as Scourge aptly put it--a dic-of-a-tater. He gained lots at the expense of others... Lots of others. One way or another, he was gonna be overthrown. I believe that if he had the opportunity, he'd attempt world domination. Had we not intervened in the Gulf War; Kuwait would've been the first step.

So, I've got mixed feelings about our current situation in the middle east, but I do support our troops (me being former military and as previously stated, Chaos Tempest is goin' to Afghanistan soon). I can't say that I don't care about the troops when I know one or two--especially considering how much of an impact they and my experience in the military has had in my life.

...Support the troops, not the situation? Does that sound right? :confused:

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Originally Posted by LenfestAndrewP

I think we need to take a step back here. Look, we attacked Iraq, the reasons given for that attack were crap but I saw in their eyes that we did some good. I've talked to them and worked with them because they felt we were doing some good. But also try to understand Rose's point of view as well. When we took down their government we basically ran their country. A bunch of infantry ran their country. That is never a good thing and its always the locals that pay the price for that mistake. We have been their a long time and now they and the fighting has only gotten worse (like I said, we are on a leash and doing a job we are neither trained for or prepared for). They have a government but how many governments do you know that always have the people at heart and start off doing a great job? Most of our allies governments started are war mongrels.

As for Saddam making Iraq stronger. He picked a fight with a country that had the support of the whole world and was lucky he only faced the U.S. in response. As a result he lost half your military. We attack a second time and well over half of whats left of your military lines up at the Kuwait border to turn themselves in before we even step foot in your country. Once we got the order to move in it took maybe 3 months to wide out all of what was left of your military even though they had plenty of time to prepare. My Battalion Task Force of over 1000 soldiers only lost one man during the shooting phase of the war. To top it off he gained the harsh attention of the entire world by doing things and creating things that almost every country on earth feels should never have existed in the first place. Are you really so sure he made your country stronger?

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that is very very true i know all that but if someone took a part form U.S.A i am sure that the U.S leader will do anything to take back this land ... and that what Sadam did Kuwait is part of Iraq but they made their own rules and they didn't go under the rules of Sadam , he attack Kuwait to take what is his ...
just like movies when something have been taken from someone he will do what ever he can to take it back ,he didn't care what will happen to his life .. but after everything i don't stand by Sadam's side and i will never stand by anyone who stand by the side of war ... =^_^=

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Originally Posted by Frozen Rose

that is very very true i know all that but if someone took a part form U.S.A i am sure that the U.S leader will do anything to take back this land ... and that what Sadam did Kuwait is part of Iraq but they made their own rules and they didn't go under the rules of Sadam , he attack Kuwait to take what is his ...
just like movies when something have been taken from someone he will do what ever he can to take it back ,he didn't care what will happen to his life .. but after everything i don't stand by Sadam's side and i will never stand by anyone who stand by the side of war ... =^_^=

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Try to understand the difference here. Now I'm not sure Kuwait was ever part of Iraq and personally I believe it wasn't. I have been to both countries. But, for the sake of a conversation. I will assume Kuwait was part of Iraq for this post. Your comparing Saddam trying to take Kuwait (who broke away of their own free will and with good reason) To someone taking over a U.S. territory. They are two different things. Taking back your own land and freeing your people is one thing. Taking over someone else's land just because you don't like the fact that don't want to be a part of your country anymore is way different. Even if your rite Saddam still wasn't taking back what was his. He was just pissed off that he didn't have control over them anymore. Dictators tend to do that.

On the other hand. I'm ashamed to say that I believe my government would find a way to do the same if that happened here. If one state tried to break away from the U.S. I believe my government would attempt to take it back. I would not agree with my government on this. We have already seen this happen once and it was not pretty (civil war).


In reply to other posts:
Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom are to very very very different things entirely. I've seen the blown up tanks and damage from desert storm. Some of it was still around when I got their.

The reason for which Iraq was attacked in the 1st place was the continuous refusal of the inspectors ,which was mainly caused not to show weakness infront of our greatest enemy from old time Iran ,after the 8 years war of Iraq and Iran ,Iran sought countless ways to interfere and were fend off ,i say this based on what i read about few weeks ago ,the biography writer of Saddam's during his imprisonment revealed ,and that Saddam didn't think that the US would seriously attack an all-out war,i mean hey they used even highly-prohibited weapons like the B52 bombs ,i speak of this not as someone replying here in this thread but as an Iraqian who have seen it ,and the current situation is far worse than it was before the system's downfall ,as you can see Iraq now is moving towards and 3-divisions iraq federations based on religional and national/racial reasons ,Suni ,Shi'ei and kurds (the first two are both arabs) ,and no one can refuse the fact that the US is taking a share of the Iraqi oil (also Iran because of the interferance which is now possible for them when Iraq is this weak) ,though the last announced withdrawal of US troops was called ,it was partial and they still have lots of bases scattering around all over the place ,i don't know but i'd hope they just pull out their forces sometime soon (few years maybe) so we can finally stand on our own and end the reason for those Qaeda terrorists to break their Jihad mask which only causes more troubles than what there's already (Many iraqies die daily under the excuse of Jihad and not Americans (with respect) which they claim to fight),i even wonder why Qaeda people come fight here and not in Aphganistan if that's where their origin is.

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Originally Posted by LichGRIFFIN

The reason for which Iraq was attacked in the 1st place was the continuous refusal of the inspectors ,which was mainly caused not to show weakness infront of our greatest enemy from old time Iran ,after the 8 years war of Iraq and Iran ,Iran sought countless ways to interfere and were fend off ,i say this based on what i read about few weeks ago ,the biography writer of Saddam's during his imprisonment revealed ,and that Saddam didn't think that the US would seriously attack an all-out war,i mean hey they used even highly-prohibited weapons like the B52 bombs ,i speak of this not as someone replying here in this thread but as an Iraqian who have seen it ,and the current situation is far worse than it was before the system's downfall ,as you can see Iraq now is moving towards and 3-divisions iraq federations based on religional and national/racial reasons ,Suni ,Shi'ei and kurds (the first two are both arabs) ,and no one can refuse the fact that the US is taking a share of the Iraqi oil (also Iran because of the interferance which is now possible for them when Iraq is this weak) ,though the last announced withdrawal of US troops was called ,it was partial and they still have lots of bases scattering around all over the place ,i don't know but i'd hope they just pull out their forces sometime soon (few years maybe) so we can finally stand on our own and end the reason for those Qaeda terrorists to break their Jihad mask which only causes more troubles than what there's already (Many iraqies die daily under the excuse of Jihad and not Americans (with respect) which they claim to fight),i even wonder why Qaeda people come fight here and not in Aphganistan if that's where their origin is.

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Ok, first off, the B52 is not a bomb its a bomber. To be specific it's the last carpet bomber we have. So tell me, if the B52 was used in Iraq what cities were leveled without the use of nuclear weapons? Most of our B52 aircraft are stationed around Russia last time I checked. I guarantee none were used on Iraq. We don't use B52s in places we currently have troops.

Second, any leader who isn't smart enough to see that the second president bush was going to send in the troops when he declared all out war is not much of a leader when you stop and think about it. Hell, the troops knew they were going in a year or so before they had the orders. I knew the second I saw that plane hit that tower on the news.

Now in support of some other things you have said. I was there when we took over that country. I stayed there many months latter. My sister when to Iraq with my unit the year I got back and she has since gone a second time. I agree, the situation is far far worse then it was when we got there. Our government doesn't know how to handle this situation. At first it seamed to be simple terrorists attacking American soldiers because they were easier to get to but its was past that now. Now everyone seams to be a target.

The real problem is that now that we have taken down your old government we can't morally leave until you can both support and defend yourselfs. This is easier said then done. Think back to how you felt with Saddam in charge. Given the choice (wich you have) would you wait in a line (wich get blown even every day) to sign up for a military working for a new government (that you don't know very well yet) knowing full well your going to war the second your done with training?

Do you really think our troops leaving your country will make all this go away? It won't. Our troops will merely be replaced with the troops of whoever decides to take advantage of the situation first. Most likely it will be troops that the bad people in your country have a long history of fighting and the fighting will get worse.

This whole situation was poorly handled by my government and now we are as trapped by it as you are and we are not any happier about it. Trust me. The number one issue in our current presidential election was how to get our soldiers out of your country.

Grumble Grumble Grumble

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Originally Posted by LenfestAndrewP

Ok, first off, the B52 is not a bomb its a bomber. To be specific it's the last carpet bomber we have. So tell me, if the B52 was used in Iraq what cities were leveled without the use of nuclear weapons? Most of our B52 aircraft are stationed around Russia last time I checked. I guarantee none were used on Iraq. We don't use B52s in places we currently have troops....

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This isn't exactly true. B52 and even the more modern B1 bombers have been used routinely in both Iraq and Afghanistan, but not for carpet bombing. Instead, their used as Bomb Trucks, offering far superior loiter time compared to the F15, F16, and FA18 Fighter and Attack aircraft. With modern, programmable on the fly, GPS guided bombs, it doesn't matter what platform drops it, as its the bombs, not the aircraft that provide the accuracy. (The recent reported issue with civilian deaths in Afghanistan was reportedly due to a B1 crew that didn't follow proper procedures...)

And the US no longer maintain standing Nuclear war bomber patrols, (to avoid the hazard of losing one in a flight accident), or even having the missile strike force actively targeting Russia, (though this state could be changed in a matter of hours) as this was done during the Bush Senior administration to reduce the chances of 'accidental' nuclear war...

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Originally Posted by LenfestAndrewP

Second, any leader who isn't smart enough to see that the second president bush was going to send in the troops when he declared all out war is not much of a leader when you stop and think about it. Hell, the troops knew they were going in a year or so before they had the orders. I knew the second I saw that plane hit that tower on the news.

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No ,he expected it to be something like the Golf's in 1991 ,and Iran's interference threat is far greater and older time-wise ,many small-launched-rebellions was started in the southern parts of Iraq (In the time of Saddam) because of Religional reasons of control (Karbala'a sacred city and others) ,helped by Iran financially.

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Originally Posted by LenfestAndrewP

Now in support of some other things you have said. I was there when we took over that country. I stayed there many months latter. My sister when to Iraq with my unit the year I got back and she has since gone a second time. I agree, the situation is far far worse then it was when we got there. Our government doesn't know how to handle this situation. At first it seamed to be simple terrorists attacking American soldiers because they were easier to get to but its was past that now. Now everyone seams to be a target..

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Mainly because of three sides ,first the PUK kurdish party in the north part in Iraq is seeking control (unofficially then officially) over some northren cities (like Mosul ,Sinjar and some small others) that's near to their so called "Kurdistan territory" or laying over its borders (knowing that they already are separated from the general system government that's in Baghdad) and the Iranian interferences that are growing even deeper now in southern parts causing more suicide-attacks and related stuff because of their religional influence (Rasfinjanie ,khamie'e in Iran and Sistaney in Iraq) and finally the Quaeda interference supporting attacks and other kind of ambushes.

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Originally Posted by LenfestAndrewP

The real problem is that now that we have taken down your old government we can't morally leave until you can both support and defend yourselfs. This is easier said then done. Think back to how you felt with Saddam in charge. Given the choice (wich you have) would you wait in a line (wich get blown even every day) to sign up for a military working for a new government (that you don't know very well yet) knowing full well your going to war the second your done with training?

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living in Saddam's rule had less people dead but people are living in a permenant cage ,afterwards the downfall it's the opposite.

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Originally Posted by LenfestAndrewP

Do you really think our troops leaving your country will make all this go away? It won't. Our troops will merely be replaced with the troops of whoever decides to take advantage of the situation first. Most likely it will be troops that the bad people in your country have a long history of fighting and the fighting will get worse.?

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Yes ,it won't but the reason for one of the parties fighting in Iraq (Al-Qaueda) will disappear though it might lead as a consequent to the increanse of the influence of the other two parties i already mentioned above.

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Originally Posted by LenMiyata

This isn't exactly true. B52 and even the more modern B1 bombers have been used routinely in both Iraq and Afghanistan, but not for carpet bombing. Instead, their used as Bomb Trucks, offering far superior loiter time compared to the F15, F16, and FA18 Fighter and Attack aircraft.

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During the war ,B52 carpet bombing was launched against some important military establishments as well.