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Thread: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

  1. #9
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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    The trouble with teaching Native American history in general, on a nation-wide scale is pretty simple: Native Americans were tribal, fragmented, kept few records and rely largely on an oral history full of different religious mythology. We don't teach Christian creation, why would we teach Navajo creation? Or Hopi creation? Or Iroquoi creation?
    Because an understanding of their belief systems helps a hell of a lot when it comes to law making about indigenous cultures, about their recognition and when it comes to decision making about current events and decision making with their land. How can one make decision on their behalf when they don't even understand the native culture. Considering they were the first Americans. We recognise the Christians belief, Chinese, Muslim and other ethnic/religous groups, but yet in some countries the indigenous people are not heard.


    oh and it's great that you've learned heaps.. I can only hope that the same starts happening over here in Aust Schools with our own indigenous people :P

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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    Meh, I guess that's the difference between conqueror and conquered, huh? Win, lose. Live, die. Thrive, Wither. This is the way of nature. Survival of the fittest. The lion eats the lamb, and so may other pithy sayings. Sorry about the luck of indigineous cultures, but that's how it goes. Life isn't fair after all........

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    anti-semantics Pub Quiz Champion tsurara may be famous one day tsurara may be famous one day tsurara's Avatar
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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    Quote Originally Posted by _gwenibe_ View Post
    Because an understanding of their belief systems helps a hell of a lot when it comes to law making about indigenous cultures, about their recognition and when it comes to decision making about current events and decision making with their land. How can one make decision on their behalf when they don't even understand the native culture. Considering they were the first Americans. We recognise the Christians belief, Chinese, Muslim and other ethnic/religous groups, but yet in some countries the indigenous people are not heard.
    Forgive me for being so blunt: but that's ridiculous.

    The average American student knows nothing at all about Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, or any other -isms. They know only the vaguely Christian ideas and values that are filtered to them through the secular media and the religions that their own families practice.

    Those who ARE religious often make the loudest objections to children learning ANYTHING about a religion that isn't their own.

    To make the notion even more foolish: most native americans no longer believe their indigenous, often animist religions and are just as unaware as the rest of us what their own forefathers believed. We can't assume that by virtue of being native Americans, these people are still being raised in teepees and sweatlodges when they aren't out at powwows or on buffalo hunts.

    In fact, most native americans have been successfully converted to Christianity... for better or for worse.

    Sometimes beliefs die. Sad, but true.

    And native american religion is a relic of the past. I don't believe we should artificially resurrect it.

    No religion should determine the flow of any classroom or coursework in a public school... ever.

    And again, I will reitterate that if ANY groups are being grossly under-represented in our current schoolbooks, they are Asian and Hispanic Americans. But I'm willing to bet that will change when they become "the new majority".

    Our kids can't find Iraq on a map. I think we need to address that before we worry about pandering to every single ethnic and religious group who clamours for a unit of the textbook. (Especially if they've already got one... or six...)
    Last edited by tsurara; Jan 08, 2008 at 10:31 PM.

  4. #12
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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    I wasn't implying that students know anything. The last sentence in my last post was that we recognised that they exist, not that they teach them all in schools. Recognised them in laws, in cultural contexts, recognise their belief, acknowledge that they exist - not teachings in schools I said nothing about that.

    It is true that beliefs that die, it happens, that's just how society works. But is that a reason to ignore the ones that are left? If we were to build a big mine (eg.) on there area that they hold close to their beliefs, should we just build on it any way just because their 'belief is fading'?

    This is more so a moral issue than anything else.

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    anti-semantics Pub Quiz Champion tsurara may be famous one day tsurara may be famous one day tsurara's Avatar
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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    Quote Originally Posted by _gwenibe_ View Post
    I wasn't implying that students know anything. The last sentence in my last post was that we recognised that they exist, not that they teach them all in schools. Recognised them in laws, in cultural contexts, recognise their belief, acknowledge that they exist - not teachings in schools I said nothing about that.
    The thing is: we do.

    American culture, media and government has done a total 180 on their treatment of Native Americans. In the 1950s they were cowboy serial villains to be shot at en masse... but now we've all got dreamcatchers hanging on our walls and go to weekend powwows and indian casinos. We've expanded reservations, created native american museums, donated huge amounts of money to tribal higher-learning funds. There are scholarships designed for only native recipiants, Native Americans get preferential admission to universities/access to jobs/etc. based on Affirmative Action, and we've added units on Native American studies to our middle school textbooks. The Media has now decided Columbus and Cortez are the villains and that Pocahontas and Squanto are our new heroes. Sacajawea's on our freaking money now :P We quote native Americans on the environment and, if anything, harbor an unrealistically romantic view of their culture as a whole.

    The problem is: native culture had already been completely decimated by disease, relocation, property-loss, Christianity, alcoholism, drug abuse, demoralization, hopelessness, lack of leadership and apathy in general. There's not a hell of a lot left to "save" in terms of a unique standalone culture: and most of that is because native american culture never WAS unified. It was tribal, animistic, fragmented and rarely formed a larger civilization in which the seperate groups were aware of one another as anything but enemies (and yes, I know this wasn't always the case and that the Six Nations was actually one of the inspirations for our own representative government).

    We've thrown the people together, killed giant chunks of them, relocated them without thought to their original home and culture, gave them very little support, let them live in poverty and made the only escape conversion to Christianity and adaptation to the "white" way of life.

    NOW we want to "save" their culture? It's too late. The people themselves have lost touch with it... what's the point in teaching it anymore?

    Do we learn Ancient Egyptian and Mayan belief systems? No... because they're obselete. They're dead cultures.

    There ARE elements of native culture and history with can be tracked, studied, and preserved: and THOSE elements, yes, I think we should learn SOMETHING about. But honestly, I don't see that we aren't.

    Like I said: I was taught Native American history... and I took another elective course in college.

    As for why I'm bringing it back to education: the original thread implies that the government is conspiring to bulldoze Native culture by refusing to teach it in American classrooms. I'm responding to the entire thread in staying on the topic of education.

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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    Quote Originally Posted by tsurara View Post
    The thing is: we do.
    NOW we want to "save" their culture? It's too late. The people themselves have lost touch with it... what's the point in teaching it anymore?
    If it's not about saving a culture, Then I guess it then comes down to this - should history be taught in schools? I mean, just because Native Americans are fading away, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be taught or taught less. I mean a lot of students learn a great deal about Ancient Egyptian cultures and beliefs and yet they are 'extinct cultures'.

    without an understanding/education there is hardly any recognition (which was the reason I was talking about it in my earlier post)

    But then again, the question obviously doesn't matter, as you've already stated - American students apparently are taught about it and recognise them in society.

    Perhaps it's America's moral right to try and save them as country after what they did to them? We seem to want to save animals after we slaughter them to almost extinction, yet letting Americans own Native people die out is ok? Not that it's really close to heart for me, just a thought on the topic.

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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    Quote Originally Posted by tsurara View Post
    The thing is: we do.

    American culture, media and government has done a total 180 on their treatment of Native Americans. In the 1950s they were cowboy serial villains to be shot at en masse... but now we've all got dreamcatchers hanging on our walls and go to weekend powwows and indian casinos. We've expanded reservations, created native american museums, donated huge amounts of money to tribal higher-learning funds. There are scholarships designed for only native recipiants, Native Americans get preferential admission to universities/access to jobs/etc. based on Affirmative Action, and we've added units on Native American studies to our middle school textbooks. The Media has now decided Columbus and Cortez are the villains and that Pocahontas and Squanto are our new heroes. Sacajawea's on our freaking money now :P We quote native Americans on the environment and, if anything, harbor an unrealistically romantic view of their culture as a whole.

    The problem is: native culture had already been completely decimated by disease, relocation, property-loss, Christianity, alcoholism, drug abuse, demoralization, hopelessness, lack of leadership and apathy in general. There's not a hell of a lot left to "save" in terms of a unique standalone culture: and most of that is because native american culture never WAS unified. It was tribal, animistic, fragmented and rarely formed a larger civilization in which the seperate groups were aware of one another as anything but enemies (and yes, I know this wasn't always the case and that the Six Nations was actually one of the inspirations for our own representative government).

    We've thrown the people together, killed giant chunks of them, relocated them without thought to their original home and culture, gave them very little support, let them live in poverty and made the only escape conversion to Christianity and adaptation to the "white" way of life.

    NOW we want to "save" their culture? It's too late. The people themselves have lost touch with it... what's the point in teaching it anymore?

    Do we learn Ancient Egyptian and Mayan belief systems? No... because they're obselete. They're dead cultures.

    There ARE elements of native culture and history with can be tracked, studied, and preserved: and THOSE elements, yes, I think we should learn SOMETHING about. But honestly, I don't see that we aren't.

    Like I said: I was taught Native American history... and I took another elective course in college.

    As for why I'm bringing it back to education: the original thread implies that the government is conspiring to bulldoze Native culture by refusing to teach it in American classrooms. I'm responding to the entire thread in staying on the topic of education.

    Okay. first off, not trying to offend. But this isn't about teaching Native American Histroy in schools. I was simply stating a fact that it was never a big part in which should have been. Histroy teaches us that the ''white man'' made America. Granted I realize the fact that a ''fraction'' of Native American culture was inserted into textbooks but was corrupted by false information. By those who only were interseted in saying that the ''savage'' scapled white settlers, women, and childern.

    And ''us'' Native Americans have already tried to make a stand. On Febraury, 27th, 1973 an Ojibwa man named Dennis Banks founded A.I.M. (American Indian Movement) Most have only heard that A.I.M took a violent siege at Pine Ridge Reservation at a place called Wounded Knee. That we started shooting and took a violent, militant path. But what isn't stated is what led up to the stand off with GOONS, Federal Marshalls, F.B.I, and even an undercover Army platoon, which may I state is against the law for the Army to be envolved in cilivilan matters. The violence that was on the reservations are still happening today. Murders, homicides, rapes, robberies, ext. Some by Native Americans that get rightfully charged and some by non-Native Americans that get off and never have to spend and day in jail. The injustice that was and is being severed to Native Americans led to the Siege. They wanted to be treated equally and be able to pratice our beliefs, which at even in the 70s we were not allowed to practice. But that didn't come out as we wanted. It never does. We were told one thing and given another.

    As to talk about the sterotypes in which you so clearly pointed out.
    Disease, relocation, property-loss, Christianity, alcoholism, drug abuse, demoralization, hopelessness, lack of leadership and apathy in general. That is all happening on the reservation. The reason for that? The lack of support that we want from the outside. The so called expanded reservations, created native american museums, donated huge amounts of money to tribal higher-learning funds and the scholarships designed for only native recipiants, Native Americans get preferential admission to universities/access to jobs/etc. do you really believe that that is helping? Even if it says that it's meant for Native Americans, from experience I know in most all cases that involve those matters are not true.

    And those ''indian casinos'' have nothing to do with our culture. It's something that we put on for the tourist who have nothing better to do than extort us. They basically put on a bunch of mumbo-jumbot together. Now don't get me worng or mis-quote me, but because of the extortion that was used, it developed into what is now ''New Age Indian Culture'' which has nothing to the with the real ethnic values, just money. (which we never see by the way)

    so instead of quoted something that people have read in a book or a magazine perhaps they should actually go and see a pow-wow and realize that it has more meaning than what they know.
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    My world is already in a violent storm

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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    Quote Originally Posted by LenMiyata View Post
    Grumble Grumble Grumble

    At the same time, history books also ignore the case where Chinese laborers brought in to this country to work on the transcontinental railroad, and first generation Japanese immigrants were not allowed to become naturalized citizens because of the Asian Exclusion Act, or that the US occupation of the Spanish territory now known as Florida was never authorized by the Congress. Or that immigration quotas of Eastern Europeans were influenced by the Eugenics movement towards racial purity. Or the persecution of the Mormon sect that drove them into self-imposed exile in the territory of Utah. Why is the exclusion of Native American Indian culture any different?

    The reality is that all the school hours available in the four years of High School can't possibly cover in detail all the sins thats been committed by this nation. And why do you think its the government responsibility to take on the interests of what is clearly a minority group interest's. If there is so much fear about a possible Federal Government conspiracy suppressing their own history and culture, then why doesn't the minority group take up its own responsibility to do this?
    Well said, Miyata-senpai.

    If Native Americans were truly worried about their situation, they'd take action; right here, right now. Black people were stressed about their situation during the time of their persecution--which really hasn't ended in my opinion--and they took (and are taking) action. And please don't tell me that alot of Natives are just now finding out they're on the brink of extinction, because I could've told you that about twenty years ago.

    In South Minneapolis, there's an area that's commonly reffered to as "The Native Projects". Like the hood, but only full of Natives. I lived there for quite some time about twenty years ago, and all my friends were Native. (Now here's the sad part) When I moved, they were no longer to be found. All the people I hung out with simply dissapeared and new people took their places. Each year in Minneapolis, the census keeps count of every person living in the city and they divide it up in to racial groups. The only group that's decreasing at an alarming rate is the Native Americans, on the other hand, blacks and mexicans are INCREASING. (Not that I have a problem with it.)

    My point is that if your people are so worried about thier dire situation, then they should try to change it--with or without approval from the tribal council or any other higher ups.


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