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Thread: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    So I have a question for you moonlight_child, what can be done and by who? It's good to have an understanding of your grievances, the Constitution was based on such, but then you have to do something about it. You want something done to fix it, then what? Where do we start and what exactly is your goal?

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    anti-semantics Pub Quiz Champion tsurara may be famous one day tsurara may be famous one day tsurara's Avatar
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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight_child View Post
    Okay. first off, not trying to offend. But this isn't about teaching Native American Histroy in schools. I was simply stating a fact that it was never a big part in which should have been. Histroy teaches us that the ''white man'' made America.
    I will argue that your original wording WAS about education, from what I can tell. And depending on the state in which you live and school the school you attend: the impression you walk away with from American History class may be quite different. I'm coming from a background where I DID learn a great deal of Native history. I'm pretty sure that most states, in similar moves to my own, don't use textbooks that continue to claim that colonialism and "discovery" were victimless, wholly heroic pursuits that discovered a nation in which no one else previously lived.

    Reguardless, it's hard to complain that white men DIDN'T found this nation, politically. Because they DID. Native Americans made contributions here and there, but the framers of our constitution were a bunch of white guys. Reguardless of concepts of equality, guilt or political correctness, that's how it was. And how it was is precisely how "history" needs to be taught.

    Granted I realize the fact that a ''fraction'' of Native American culture was inserted into textbooks but was corrupted by false information. By those who only were interseted in saying that the ''savage'' scapled white settlers, women, and childern.
    Show me this textbook. Because it surely wasn't my own. Unless you went to school in the 1950s, I'm pretty sure YOU didn't use this textbook either. I assure you, I learned more from my textbooks about Native American history than I do at powwows.

    And ''us'' Native Americans have already tried to make a stand.
    No, YOU didn't take a stand. A Native American leader did. You weren't with him, you didn't help him and you haven't taken a stand for yourself in your own community. And maybe that's part of the problem?

    Saying "we" made a stand is like saying that I, personally, went out and shot your anscestors, just because I'm white. Ethnicity doesn't make you heir to every action your people take.

    Oh... and we learned about Wounded Knee too. Had to read a book on it in 8th grade and give reports in front of the class for a week. Still think we didn't learn any Native American history?

    As to talk about the sterotypes in which you so clearly pointed out.
    Disease, relocation, property-loss, Christianity, alcoholism, drug abuse, demoralization, hopelessness, lack of leadership and apathy in general. That is all happening on the reservation. The reason for that? The lack of support that we want from the outside.
    Ummm... reservations and native businesses pay no taxes to their states and resist being governed by many of their laws. The reservations were designed, on the INSISTANCE of native leaders, to be self-sufficient and self-governing. But you want MORE state aid? O-o;

    Native Americans can't blame EVERYTHING on the "outside"... surely there's something to be said for the failures of the tribes themselves when it comes to supporting and inspiring their own communities.

    The so called expanded reservations, created native american mus
    eums, donated huge amounts of money to tribal higher-learning funds and the scholarships designed for only native recipiants, Native Americans get preferential admission to universities/access to jobs/etc.
    do you really believe that that is helping?
    Alright, then I guess we should stop? If it's so unwelcome, we could save a ton of money by just forgetting about this "helping" business altogether.

    Oh... and some links to those "So-called" places and programs:
    National Museum of the American Indian
    Welcome to Frisco Native American Museum
    Abbe Museum-Bar Harbor, Maine: Celebrating Maine's Native American Heritage
    The Museum of the Native American Resource Center at UNC Pembroke
    Amerind Foundation
    FinAid | Other Types of Aid | Native American Students
    Civil Rights 101
    Affirmative action - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    But if you don't want any of them...

    And those ''indian casinos'' have nothing to do with our culture.
    Funny... they are supporting your communities and making a few of them quite rich. They're also a good illustration of how reservations are exempt from paying state and federal business taxes, sales tax and complying to state anti-gambling laws.

    It's something that we put on for the tourist who have nothing better to do than extort us.
    WHAT?!

    How are tourists extorting native americans by patronizing their businesses? Am I "extorting" Applebees when I order a steak there?

    so instead of quoted something that people have read in a book or a magazine perhaps they should actually go and see a pow-wow and realize that it has more meaning than what they know.
    Nothing you've said would imply to me that, by virtue of being native american, you are any more informed than the rest of us.

    As for going to a powwow to learn history? Watching some dancing, petting a domesticated wolf and eat your own weight in fry bread isn't exactly the most educational experience in the universe. I have been to several... even worked at one for a summer as the assistant at a native wildlife rehabilitation center. I still think I've learned more from good old fashioned reading.

    Complaining about adversity and being a "victim" is all very nice... but unless you have some real suggestions for change: nothing will ever come of it. Native American communities can't continue to survive solely on hand-outs: they need to come up with viable solutions to support their own communities and produce some leaders who will restore vision to their people. Rather than complaining that whatever everyone on the outside is doing isn't enough: start pushing for something to happen from the inside. Communities can not thrive on social welfare programs alone...

  3. #19
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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    Okay Mr. tsurara it seems that you feel that you are more educated in Native American Matters than myself so let me inform you on what excatly I know.

    I say 'we' because as a nation or as a people that is what we are One Nation. But then again most people never understand that because they only think of themselves.

    Then comes the the comment about AIM. I was connected to that movement from the day I was born. And yes I am an heir to that movement. Our generation is running AIM presently. Oh... and some links to those

    As for the help that you so profoundly talk of? How many doors do you think get slammed in our faces? Of course I realize it's so much easier to talk when you're on the other side of the tracks.

    As for the reservations being exempt from paying state and federal business taxes, sales tax and complying to state anti-gambling laws, I wonder why our tribes never really see that money going to our clinics, our schools, or other buildings that the reservations need. Where does it go? YOU have the anwsers.

    My intentions were not on the teaching of Native American History in schools, but about the facts of things that were taken to the extreme level of schools that made us who most of us are today. Perhaps I shouldn't have even stated that. However one thing does lead to another. And so you did learn about Native American history. That's good I'm not saying it's not and I suppose it does depend on where you're from. Because at Indian schools, some public school that house a majority of Indian and the some schools on the reservation, do not learn about any of those things. We learn about all the presidents and the founding of America by Christopher Coulmbus. But like I stated before. It's easier to talk when you're on the otherside of the tracks.

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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    Ask your tribal leaders and the organizers of the casino where that money's going if it isn't going to the tribe: because it certainly isn't being taken by us horrendous, exploitative, default-monster whites. If there is abuse in this sector: it is INTERNAL.

    And again... you have failed to offer any support for your arguments, alternative courses of action, potential solutions, or take any sort of responsibility for the problems.

    Until you can do any of those things: I think this argument's over... because it's not an argument at all.

  5. #21
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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    As for the reservations being exempt from paying state and federal business taxes, sales tax and complying to state anti-gambling laws, I wonder why our tribes never really see that money going to our clinics, our schools, or other buildings that the reservations need. Where does it go? YOU have the anwsers.
    That's not how it is up in Mystic Lake Reservation. I've got good friends who are Native American--went to high school with them--after we graduated, they moved up to Mystic Lake (where one of the three casinos here are located). They'd come back and visit us in the Twin Cities and would bring us all kinds of swag.

    They don't work a single day while living up there. Why? 'Cause their parents and the rest of the community is becoming filthy friggin' rich from what?? You guessed it: Mystic Lake Casino! (Don't go there BTW, you'll lose all your money)

    The same applies with the Mille Lacs tribe as well. They run Grand Casino (which has two locations: One in Mille Lacs and one in Hinckley) and everybody I know who's got some association with that tribe aren't broke, I can tell you that much. The reservations WITHOUT casinos have a harder time, and I can understand why. But they still get funding from our government--not as much as they'd like, but still.

    If you're worried about your people becoming obsolete, irrelevant or extinct; the best thing to do would be quit complaining and making false accusations with no proof to back it up and take action.


  6. #22
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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    Grumble Grumble Grumble
    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight_child View Post
    I say 'we' because as a nation or as a people that is what we are One Nation. But then again most people never understand that because they only think of themselves.

    Then comes the the comment about AIM. I was connected to that movement from the day I was born. And yes I am an heir to that movement. Our generation is running AIM presently. Oh... and some links to those

    As for the help that you so profoundly talk of? How many doors do you think get slammed in our faces? Of course I realize it's so much easier to talk when you're on the other side of the tracks...
    Other sides of the track huh? I just happen to be pure 3rd generation Japanese American on both sides of the family. This means that my grandparents (who entered this country in 1918) were not allowed to become US citizens until well after WWII (due to the Asian Exclusion Act). Despite denied US citizenship, Japanese Americans took advantage of a legal loophole in the law by writing titles and deeds to property in the name of their children (who were US citizens under constituional law), and reclaimed worthless sand dunes in the Salinas valley, and swamp islands in SF Bay delta into the most productive agricultural regions in the US. This also means that during the War, my parents and grandparents were given only 48 hour notice to liquidate all of their property and possessions, (and only allowed to keep what they could carry on the backs!) and report for internment in desert relocation camps guarded by barbed wire and machine gun towers for the duration of the war. And while my grandparents and mother were left to rot in these camps, my father served in McArther's GHQ working as a military translator. And even then, it was US Army policy at the time not to allow him to become a commissioned officer, even though he had to take and pass the same courses as commissioned Army Intelligence officers.

    The US Supreme Court in 1967 after the fact declared that the relocation order was unconstitutional, and technically invalid since it was based on forged espionage reports created by the FBI director J. Edger Hoover. After the war had ended, when the interned Japanese Americans were freed, denied due process and stripped of their land, they found that many of the communities that they were taken from had passed laws barring their return. The only reason why they were able to return was because of the valor earned by the Japanese American Battalions in Europe, the Army felt obligated to protect the rights of the returning veterans. But even then, with the discriminatory atmosphere of the period, local companies and governments refused to hire the returning Japanese Americans. There were many many cases where people with professional and college degrees were forced to become landscape gardeners, because this was the only work available to them...

    Faced with a hostile public, the Japanese American Community pulled together as a whole to help each other. And with a culture that emphasized personal integrity, education, self discipline and improvement, they set about to rebuild their community. Today, Japanese Americans are ranked as among the wealthiest minority groups in the US, with the only government quotas available in California are discriminatory ones to prevent the children of Japanese Americans from swamping the incoming classes of prestigious University of California campuses...

    So I stand as part of the living proof that if a ethnic minority community is worthy of the challenge, it is possible to overcome these little setbacks. So the question has to be asked, is your community worthy of the challenge? And if it isn't, then why is it worth saving?
    Last edited by LenMiyata; Jan 10, 2008 at 03:58 PM.
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  7. #23
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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    Wow. After what LenMiyata just posted... I can't compete with that. But he does raise a pretty good question. And in my opinion, there are numerous occasions where other races stood together as a people to overcome thier challenges.

    You say that you're against "what the government is doing" to your people and that you're a part of a movement that is supposed to be taking action, but where's the action? Civil rights movements are usually events that change things for the better. When a group of people stand together and fight for what they believe in thier hearts to be right and true, they prosper, they make progress. Thier numbers don't dwindle down, and they don't just let the world pass them by while thier losing what was thiers to begin with.

    Now don't get me wrong, I've got nothin' against any person of any race, religion, etc. But there's a difference between wanting something to change and actually putting effort in to making something change.


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    Re: Undercover Genocide of A Sacred Nation

    Quote Originally Posted by tsurara View Post
    Forgive me for being so blunt: but that's ridiculous.

    The average American student knows nothing at all about Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, or any other -isms. They know only the vaguely Christian ideas and values that are filtered to them through the secular media and the religions that their own families practice.

    Those who ARE religious often make the loudest objections to children learning ANYTHING about a religion that isn't their own.

    To make the notion even more foolish: most native americans no longer believe their indigenous, often animist religions and are just as unaware as the rest of us what their own forefathers believed. We can't assume that by virtue of being native Americans, these people are still being raised in teepees and sweatlodges when they aren't out at powwows or on buffalo hunts.

    In fact, most native americans have been successfully converted to Christianity... for better or for worse.

    Sometimes beliefs die. Sad, but true.

    And native american religion is a relic of the past. I don't believe we should artificially resurrect it.

    No religion should determine the flow of any classroom or coursework in a public school... ever.

    And again, I will reitterate that if ANY groups are being grossly under-represented in our current schoolbooks, they are Asian and Hispanic Americans. But I'm willing to bet that will change when they become "the new majority".

    Our kids can't find Iraq on a map. I think we need to address that before we worry about pandering to every single ethnic and religious group who clamours for a unit of the textbook. (Especially if they've already got one... or six...)
    According to one post:
    "But is this really the result of a government conspiracy? As tragic as the loss of Native American Indian culture is, if you were given the choice of living in a skin hut, with the 'natural' benefits of living in a stone knives and bear skins stone age society, or living in a modern condo with central heating, hot and cold running water and flat panel TV, what would you choose???"

    Interesting .... hmmmm - living in a skin hut .... stone knives and bear skins stone age society, or living in a modern condo with central heating, hot and cold running water and flat panel TV, what would you choose???" Yes, I'll admit to preferring the latter; however, it would be much better if our air quality wasn't quite so toxic; if what we ate were not GMOs; if the water and land was not polluted; if our (Native) birth rate was not among the lowest in North America; if our treaties were honored, maybe then a condo would look pretty good. However, thanks to industrialization and global corporate greed our planet is in rather bad shape and it is usually us Native folks who are in the front lines for all this.

    Referring to Aboriginal culture as "stone age" makes me wonder how we survived all those centuries. Interesting to note that we had knowledge of astronomy, architechture, mathematics, science, etc. Native people did and do have cultures - a danger to the colonizers who wanted our land and resources.

    Personally, I think I would rather have an atmosphere with no ozone holes, clean (not toxic) land and water than a condo and big screen TV.

    Terms like "ethnic cleansing", like the term "collateral damage" (a term I dislike) is a sanitized term. In terms of Native people, ethnic cleansing is genocide and the genocide of Aboriginals is still going on - in a different form but it is still going on.

    Megwich

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