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Thread: vitalism vs mechanism (Creationist vs Evolution)

  1. #33
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    Re: vitalism vs mechanism (Creationist vs Evolution)

    Grumble Grumble Grumble
    Quote Originally Posted by fayt lingod View Post
    if that were so we would have seen it by now. idiots have been observing animals for almost 3 melinia and we haven't even been able to see many microscopic changes
    But would idiots notice anything??? 3,000 years is simply negligible when compared to the time scales that evolution is suppose to work on... 100,000 to millions of years. (There is one case of a wallaby population that was released/escaped onto a pacific island that have undergone enough change that some scientist have proposed it deserved to be ranked as a new species, but then you get into the argument on what defines a species and how large a difference is necessary to define one...)
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    Re: vitalism vs mechanism (Creationist vs Evolution)

    I believe that the largest piece of evidence for evolution has yet to be discussed. The fact that when we are growing in our mother's womb we start off as the first organisms started off, and in the nine months we spend in there we basically go through our evolution on a smaller scale. We start off as a single cell which eventually replicates.

    Did you know that at one point we have structures which appear to be gills? Did you know that throughout much of the pregnancy, the human fetus has a tail which eventually will shorten and dissapear (and that some infants are actually born with a small part of this tail which did not revert back into the body, in cases such as these it is easily removed via surgery) And that throughout the beginning of the pregnancy we have webbed hands and feet.

    The changes we undergo in the mother closely match the proposed pathway we have taken in evolving over the past billion or so years.

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    Re: vitalism vs mechanism (Creationist vs Evolution)

    Quote Originally Posted by frr_vegeta View Post
    I believe that the largest piece of evidence for evolution has yet to be discussed. The fact that when we are growing in our mother's womb we start off as the first organisms started off, and in the nine months we spend in there we basically go through our evolution on a smaller scale. We start off as a single cell which eventually replicates.

    Did you know that at one point we have structures which appear to be gills? Did you know that throughout much of the pregnancy, the human fetus has a tail which eventually will shorten and dissapear (and that some infants are actually born with a small part of this tail which did not revert back into the body, in cases such as these it is easily removed via surgery) And that throughout the beginning of the pregnancy we have webbed hands and feet.

    The changes we undergo in the mother closely match the proposed pathway we have taken in evolving over the past billion or so years.


    but many of the thing you mentioned were shown scientifically to simply "be there" they weren't casued specifically geneticaly.
    the gills are just extra folds of skin that later stretch over the neck.
    the "webbed" feet and hands is also extra skin. it was not genetically written to look webbed, it just happened to be that was.
    i never really studied how they explained away the tail, but i just remember reading that they did.

    thanks to zyta for the sick sig and avy!

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    Re: vitalism vs mechanism (Creationist vs Evolution)

    Quote Originally Posted by fayt lingod View Post
    but many of the thing you mentioned were shown scientifically to simply "be there" they weren't casued specifically geneticaly.
    the gills are just extra folds of skin that later stretch over the neck.
    the "webbed" feet and hands is also extra skin. it was not genetically written to look webbed, it just happened to be that was.
    i never really studied how they explained away the tail, but i just remember reading that they did.
    First of all everything about how our bodies are made is genetically determined. Thats what the genes are they are step by step instructions for building a body. So they are caused "specifically geneticaly" as you said.

    And yes, they simply "are there" because those are the forms we once held. Changes in DNA are not just simply "no more gills, lungs now" It's "gills for breathing" "lungs for breathing" "remove gills because lungs for breathing" The reason we still have those primitive parts is because evolution builds upon what we start with. When we gained lungs the coding for gills was not removed, a segment of coding was just added further down the line which basically says "alright the gills which were created earlier have to go"

    Besides, why would God have us form gills and a tail during part of our development?

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    Re: vitalism vs mechanism (Creationist vs Evolution)

    Grumble grumble grumble

    You have to be careful here... The statement that Phylogeny replicates Ontology (where fetal development replicates evolutionary deveopment) is only valid for members of the order Cordata (creatures with back-bones). For other invertebrate orders on the Phylogeny Tree of life, embryo development becomes absolutly bizzare...
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    Re: vitalism vs mechanism (Creationist vs Evolution)

    Quote Originally Posted by LenMiyata View Post
    Grumble grumble grumble

    You have to be careful here... The statement that Phylogeny replicates Ontology (where fetal development replicates evolutionary deveopment) is only valid for members of the order Cordata (creatures with back-bones). For other invertebrate orders on the Phylogeny Tree of life, embryo development becomes absolutly bizzare...
    Only a theory of course, but it could be possible that because development could be viewed as a compression of evolution, and we branched off from the other phyla at such an early point on the evolutionary timeline, that any resemblance to the "non-chordates" would be represented during the zygote stage and more than likely be 'said and done with' by the time the zygote can be called an embryo.

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    Re: vitalism vs mechanism (Creationist vs Evolution)

    Grumble Grumble Grumble

    This actually was a serious proposal in biology about a 100 years ago. This issue came up, if fetal development in cordates mimic the evolutionary phylogeny, then why was it not true for invertebrates??? And if it's not true for invertebrates, then why would it be true for cordata??? The concept is now generally discounted in biological circles, but the issue won't be completly settled until the break through on understanding genetic expression and control mechanisms occur...
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    Re: vitalism vs mechanism (Creationist vs Evolution)

    Quote Originally Posted by LenMiyata View Post
    Grumble Grumble Grumble

    This actually was a serious proposal in biology about a 100 years ago. This issue came up, if fetal development in cordates mimic the evolutionary phylogeny, then why was it not true for invertebrates??? And if it's not true for invertebrates, then why would it be true for cordata??? The concept is now generally discounted in biological circles, but the issue won't be completly settled until the break through on understanding genetic expression and control mechanisms occur...
    Just another example of how technology and human capacity always lag behind human desire.

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