aceman67

How does someone know something like that?

Let me ask you this: Have you ever pondered about a choice, and gotten a warm feeling in your chest, and you Just KNEW beyond any shadow of a doubt that the choice you made was the right thing to do?

That feeling and the knowledge that what you're doing is right is the, (According to my beliefs) is the Holy Ghost telling you that.

when a new President for my church is being chosen, the Leadership of our church (The two councellors to the president, and the 12 apostles) all pray to ask who should be the next President, and they know the choice that they made is the right one based on that feeling. Its all based on faith.

Now, in a previous post you said "How do we know that our leader might be telling us the wrong thing". We know that he wont because, and I don't know where this is written and I sure arrianna knows where it is, that should a prophet ever lead us astray, God would remove him from the earth.

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atomik_sprout

Makes sense, I suppose. But do you mean to tell me that 12 to 14 people all (or a majority of them) get the same gut feeling to pick that one person? It kinda doesn't add up. (no disrespect) I don't see the logic, I suppose.

I've always believed that the warm feeling you speak of is instinct. Pure, unadulterated human--animal--instinct. We're all born with it, and usually it's to make desicions based on life and death. And I still fail to understand why god would choose just ONE person from ONE religious group to be his prophet/voice. It's illogical, and I believe that God is the highest form of logic in the entire universe. The catholic pope is chosen by other priests, they don't pray on it, they vote on it; based from how the priest carries himself and how devoted he is to god and what not. Why wouldn't God choose a prophet for each of his denominations of religion?

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Arrianna

It's more of a sustaining then a vote and yes it is always unanimous. That isn't actually that hard when you realize that it is always the senior Apostle (the one who has been an Apostle the longest not the oldest). The belief is that since God can control life or death he will see personally that the right man is alive at the right time. The one in charge is God not man or men.

It is actually really funny. Every time the Prophet dies all these reporters from all over the world gather speculating about who the next one will be this time and wondering about how the members will take it when we already know exactly who it is going to be already and the only ones who don't get it is them.

Well you are running into two different issues there.

The first is the difference between being "a prophet" and being "The Prophet". The definition of a prophet is one who testifies of Christ. You can get many different prophets at a given time. However "The Prophet" is the only one with the priesthood authority to lead the church. He is the only one given that authority, the only single man to hold all the "keys", to receive revelation for the entire world, and he is called to the entire world not just the members of the church.

That is where the second issue comes in, authority. If you know anything about Catholicism it should be a familiar concept. There is a line of authority that goes directly back to Christ. The authority to preside over earthly ordinances. A lack of authority is actually something that bothered many founders of several Protestant religions. They knew they didn't have it but believed that the Catholic church had lost it at some point as well. The Catholics of course disagree and say they still have it. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' (LDS) stand is that the authority was lost with the deaths of the original Apostles and was restored to the LDS church.

So yes, it is about logic. Logically there should be a clear line of authority to prevent any confusion about who has authority or is The Prophet. Even then you have to get back to that "instinct" as you call it and decide for yourself just who does have the authority.

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Joe Mage

Sorry, I was bein' a little sarcastic wit that statement. I was inna bad mood and I have gotten pretty sick and tired of explainin' the church and it's beliefs ta people who have the wrong ideas 'bout the church. Not that Miroku4444 is or isn', it has nothin' ta do wit her. I was jus' ventin' and I apologize ta any1 that I might have offended.

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atomik_sprout

I see. Interesting. Ya learn somethin' new every day. ^_^

I dunno. I guess I'm the type of person who'd rather not follow a "prophet". I have a lack of trust in people, so that idea's out the window. And where do these apostles come from? The original 12 apostles followed Jesus. Your apostles follow a prophet. Jesus (whom I believe was a prophet himself) hasn't walked the earth in over 2000 years. And why would god speak to humans when he hasn't done so since biblical times? From what I've read, your religion was started by a man here in America back in around 1700 or so. He went off on some kind of religious hunt and "spoke to god". Isn't that around the same time people were burned for being "mad/crazy"?

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Lupas

atomik_sprout

Exactly. If God wanted us to hear what he had to say, why wouldn't he tell everybody instead of entrusting just one "prophet"? Why not call him a priest, if that's what he is? Prophets are people who hear God's voice and lead his people to salvation. When is the last time you saw someone sit and have a conversation with God outside of prayer? If I go to Utah, and I'm minding my own business, then next thing you know I'm talkin' to God and he's talking back, does that make me a prophet? If I told you that God told me to lead a small group of people to enlightenment, would you take me seriously?

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aceman67

The corner stone of our religion is the Freedom of Choice, or Free Agency. Everyone has the right to chose for them selves what they believe, and how to run their lives.

Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus Christ in 1819 (He was only 14). What lead to this was that he was pondering what church to join, trying to decide, he read a passage in the bible "But if any of you lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." (James 1, verse 5), so when he finished his work on his family's farm, he went out into a grove of trees in Palmyra New York, south east of Rochester. (I've walked in the same Grove of trees, its quite beautiful, and very calming and peaceful.)

There he prayed and he was then struck with blinding darkness and pain, and just as he was about to give up and die, a Piller of light shown down and in it was two people. One said, pointing to the other, "This is my Son, Hear him"

As for the rest of history of the church, you're going to have to do the research yourself, I would suggest Wikipedia, because other then official documents put out by my church, it is the most unbiased and accurate account.

I believe that the reason God chose to talk to Joseph Smith then, at that time, in the United States, was because Joseph was a young man, honestly looking for the truth and it was the appropriate time to bring the fullness of the gospel back to the earth. They were in a country that had freedom of religion, the region that they were in had a Religious revival going on, so a lot of people were looking at different faiths (This is called the "Second Great Awakening" Second Great Awakening - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), so logically, it would make some sense.

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Arrianna

You are still missing the point of a line of authority. Everyone who is sincere is capable of receiving revelation. Authority however and revelation goes hand in hand. You can receive personal revelation concerning yourself. A father or mother can do so for their children. A husband or wife for their spouse and children. A Quorum leader or president for those they have been called to lead. A bishop for those living inside their ward boundaries. A Stake President for those living inside the Stake. A Regional Authority for those inside the region. The Prophet for the entire world. It's a clear line of authority and responsibility. Those in authority have the responsibility for those that they are over and not for those they aren't. That clarity prevents confusion about who has the authority to give you instruction and also your ability for personal revelation leaves you the responsibility to go to God and confirm whatever you are told.

1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order

Other then that it is all about Agency as aceman said. Not only do you have the agency to decide for yourself you have the responsibility to determine for yourself what you will believe and not just believe anything anyone tells you. Just like anything else, first you learn about it, then you take that knowledge and chose for yourself. No one can make that choice for you, just you.

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Inuruto

I have heard that if you had dark-skin you was curse & that God looked down upon you as a "non-enlightenment" person & if you somehow was "blessed" with the word of god (A dark-skinned/curse) you was second class so to speak...

I am the type of person who would probably question many things even religion the reason behind that is what atomik was talking about... Man tends to play on feelings & way of life & try to convert you to their beliefs... I believe a person should find the truth for oneself & not cause of what someone else claim is true... I don't believe one religion is right & the others is wrong nor do I believe everything is true cause it claims to be... To find a religion on your own is one thing, but to find it cause your parents, family, & friends is another... Many wars was fought cause of religion & anything that powerful that will corrupt people in being barbaric like is far from any "enlightenment" I would want... I am talking about hanging, banishment, expulsion, fighting, etc... None of that is "god" like even Jesus was talked about, stoned, tortured, & killed... For him having to die for our sins should be enough for a person to find their way toward God (if they believe in him)... I just don't get how people can believe in God, but turn & twist the way they took "his" word to make a new religion & try & go to convert others to a subsided religion they took from another & make it their own to benefit their way of life towards God... In my opinion the person who started polygamy was just someone who believed in God, but knew that having many woman was frowned upon & BAM!!! A new religion to benefit his desire, but aim towards God... (They found their way toward God, but took it in their own way to benefit their way of life)... For example: a priest who knows it's wrong to molest children, but in a sense they feel cause they aim towards God that it is right in a way...< (to benefit their way of life)...

Arrianna

Can I recommend actually reading the previous posts at the beginning of the thread?

*Beginning Here*

In the case of the LDS schisms that practice polygamy I would agree with you. However the original practice in the LDS church (previous to the necessity to care for the widows and orphans) was a direct result of their studies of the Old Testament and their noticing that the old Testament Prophets and family heads had multiple spouses and asking God why. As for the details please, again, take the time to read the previous posts.

Really, it is very annoying when someone comes into a conversation without taking the time to understand the context or see if their concerns have already been answered.

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