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Thread: The World Grows Angry @ God!

  1. #73
    Poultry Projectile Cannon Scourge is making a name for themselves Scourge is making a name for themselves Scourge's Avatar
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    Quote Originally Posted by loknkey View Post
    I want concrete answers dammit!
    As every one has said before already, if you want concrete answers you’re going to have to have a chit chat with god on that. Other wise we can only speculate and come up with ideas and answers of what we find in life on our little speck of dust we call Earth... So good luck on finding the number to God's cloud... Even if you do get a hold of him he will still not give you the answers that you seek as knowledge can not be given it must be earned and learned from ones own experince in order for it to make sense. Sorta like giving some one advice about something, because in all likely hood that person wont listen and will not take your advice and instead find out the hard way.
    "MY DEAR... I GIVE YOU THE CAPELLAN CONFEDERATION"
    AND THUS THE WAR WAS STARTED NOT BY GUN SHOT BUT BY WEDDING BELLS

  2. #74
    Mathematical!! Bugz Champion, Ant Bully Champion, Chainsaw the childern Champion, 3D Net Blazer Champion, Cricket Challenge Champion, Big Uglies Champion, Body Check Champion, Desktop Fishing Champion, All Star Skate Park Champion, Chuckie Egg Champion, Birdy Champion, Anthrax Jelly Champion, Air Typer Champion, Word Pads Champion, Crash Test Dummy Curling Champion, The Mini Jump Game Champion, Chairlift Challenge Champion, Astroboy vs One Bad Storm Champion, Fight Man Champion, Blot In Hell Champion, Beeku Adventure Champion, Connect2 Champion, Atomica Champion, Cannonball Follies 2 Champion, Bada Boing Champion, BeachDefence Champion, Alkie Kong 2 Champion atomik_sprout has become well known atomik_sprout has become well known atomik_sprout has become well known atomik_sprout's Avatar
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    Quote Originally Posted by loknkey View Post
    It just seems so black and white to me. Can you give an example in which a human would NOT be responsible for his actions, when he had complete knowledge of what would occur, and could easily change the situation?
    DUDE!!! First you're sayin' God is responsible, now you're saying that humans are responsible!! MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!
    Quote Originally Posted by loknkey View Post
    Please ask your self why we must have suffering to learn, grow, have freedom, etc... Why does suffering inspire growth? Why is it that overcoming obstacles makes us stronger? Is there just some natural order to the universe that causes this to be so? I'm trying to dig deep here. As deep as we possibly can go.
    Dig deeper...

    As humans, we learn and grow through experience (monkeys do too, LOL). You're obviously not reading our words, verbatim. If you had, you'd finally grasp the concept of... What was it again? ....Ah, yes! BALANCE!!! You can't grow if all you know is staying small. You can't learn what true bliss is, nor can you appreciate it, without suffering. If you spent a year, adrift at sea, with no boat and you had to tread water until you were rescued; I'm pretty sure that you'd never go swimmin' again! Why? Because, experience taught you otherwise. That one experience may f*ck up your whole outlook on water.


    If you fought in a war that lasted twenty years, with no break and lived off of MREs throughout that score (score=twenty years in the "new" english), I'm sure that once you went to a peaceful country and got to eat real food, you'd LOVE it! You'd appreciate it and you would thank your lucky stars that you've found a way out of all the chaos. If you sat in a moldy, murky, wet and stuffy basement for your entire life, I'm sure that you'd appreciate even sleeping in a living room--OR THE ATTIC EVEN!

    God creates things like suffering and other negative aspects in life, so we can learn from it. We are creatures of habit and if we only know one way of life, we can never learn about the other. Why? Because, you can't have one without the other! God didn't create us as an "occasional result of suffering," he created us to learn to live through the suffering, so we can learn to be happy without constantly asking God for sh*t! So we can learn to find peace on our own. Who cares about how many universes, or what kind of universes he can create? The fact of the matter is that we live in the universe we live in NOW and we will always be living in this universe. Stop trying so hard to think in the past about things that've already happened and live in NOW and you'll see that what God can or can't do doesn't matter anymore. Live in now and you'll see that suffering only lasts a while and you can make yourself happy by not worrying about past or future.

    Quote Originally Posted by loknkey View Post
    Well I apologize. I made sense of it the best I could. Perhaps it would help me if you could present your argument in a more formal format with premises and a conclusion. To respond to your objection....Why is it that we need wars to understand peace? Why must we suffer in order to experience bliss? If you can unswer these questions, then maybe you will understand my point a little better.
    Well, I apologize. Perhaps you should actually READ what we've been trying to tell you like the broken records we are now! If you can't understand that the world, no, The Universe needs balance, that PEOPLE need balance, that without suffering, there's no bliss--or even understanding of what it is--then you're gonna face a life of questions, doubts and you'll probably just end up blaming God for something YOU couldn't figure out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peach_follows View Post
    I know I'm new to this debate... but I just wanted to throw in my couple of pennies, if I may. I think you are trying to hard to understand a God we are not capable of totaly grasping. You said yourself, that God is omniscient... We are not. So why are you trying so hard to get why God allows things to be what, and how they are? You can't!

    This is why you will hear in many churches... to "Let go and let God" to "Trust him, and never doubt". We are not capable of being on his level.

    You say God determines what is wise and what is not? How do you know that? God knows everything... and can do anything... That is your agument correct? So, think about what you've learned. Think about what you know to be true. Think about your ethics, and moral code. Once you've determined whats right and wrong, what makes sense to you... How likely is it that you'd change your mind? The real question is... Once you know that something is right... and that it makes sense.... aren't you bound by that? So maybe God did create natrual order... That doesn't mean he isn't bound by it. He is... because he knows everything... and he knows that natrual order makes sense. Just because you can do what ever you want... Doesn't mean you would do what makes no sense to you.
    OMG, I'm so glad you jumped in on this!! I'm tired of repeating myself.

    At any rate, I agree with you. Just because you get to decide how things work, it doesn't give you the right to make everything easy for everybody. Hell, nohing in life is easy, except for video games and walking on your own two feet. Why should God make things easy for people? So nobody learns the value of hard work, or learns that they can be happier simply by changing a few bad habits and take responsibility for thier actions? Screw that! I like life, the world and The Universe just the way it is.


    What is your favorite food? Why is it your favorite? I'm guessing you don't eat it everyday, right? I'm sure if you did, it would not be your favorite food... after a while you would be used to it... Maybe even get sick of it. Certainly, if you ate your favorite food everyday, you wouldn't appreciate it as your favorite.

    If everyday was quiet.... we would not appreciate silence.

    If we just lived in bliss and peace, we would not have the ability to appreciate it. If god would have created us to NOT appreciate... then we would not appreciate GOD either. I'm sure he COULD have created us and the world we lived in just like that too... But... he KNEW that didn't make sense.[/QUOTE]

    Thank you!!! ^_<

    Quote Originally Posted by Scourge View Post
    My life is a prime example as to why suffering is allowed to exist.
    As is mine, friend. I grew up with no father, thought my sibling's dad was my dad 'til I was about nine. Spent the rest of my life in confusion, anger and worry because of it. Got in and out of trouble, made horrible decisions and barely graduated high school. Went to the Army, got in to drugs, obtained an addiction and had personal issues, including losing my first love and fiancee. Was almost put in prison for drug charges and was sent back home. Didn't bother changing my ways until I met my biological father and moved to Wisconsin with my sister. Her and I did drugs, and got in a horrible accident--in which we could've died in eight different ways--after the accident, we both quit doin' drugs and I moved back to Minneapolis. Decided to try to get my life together and went to school. Still had a problem with alcohol and didn't realize it until I moved in with a friend of mine after one of my closest friends got a DUI because he left my b-day party just as drunk as I was. Long story short, I had a son and learned the error of my ways. Quit drinkin' for a long time, now I do it responsibly. I work, I pay bills, I live a peaceful life and I'm happy. Though there was some suffering in between. Like, not being able to have a peaceful relationship with my son in the beginning, losing a friend in the process of leaving a loved one, then losing a loved one in the process of her leaving for a friend. THEN, there's the death of my brother and another close friend. But, I know peace, I and I know happiness; because I learned through experience. I learned how to be happy without meth, coke and hallucenigens. I learned to live life worry free and without having to regret the past, nor fear the future. I live in now and NOW I'm happy, I'm sane, I'm at peace and I'm free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scourge View Post
    As every one has said before already, if you want concrete answers you’re going to have to have a chit chat with god on that. Other wise we can only speculate and come up with ideas and answers of what we find in life on our little speck of dust we call Earth... So good luck on finding the number to God's cloud... Even if you do get a hold of him he will still not give you the answers that you seek as knowledge can not be given it must be earned and learned from ones own experince in order for it to make sense. Sorta like giving some one advice about something, because in all likely hood that person wont listen and will not take your advice and instead find out the hard way.
    Yo, I've got the number to God's cloud! You wouldn't believe the long-distance charges! LOL.

    There's no such thing as a concrete answer when it comes to trying to understand what life truly is. It's something you learn from experience, and having people tell you based on thier experiences. It's something you learn when you start to notice the balance of the world, the universe and yourself. It's learned through constantly being aware of your surroundings and not making the same mistakes you've made previously. You want concrete, take a job in construction. You want to be a happy soul? Stop questioning life, pointing fingers at a being of deity status and just live.


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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    One could very well ask those same questions of me, a writer and artist, or of an composer, or a child down the street, etc. We can not know exactly what goes on in an individual's head, what they're think, what result that they r hopin' for, etc.; we can only know the general idea. Whose ta say that God, as Peach has already stated, hasn' created other worlds and species; simply put; We don' know. Jus' as God is suppose ta b infinite, the possibilities r too.
    Yes, but certain possibilities are more probable than others. Although uncertainty may always be present, this is not a good reason to abandon evidence and rationality all together. Neither is uncertainty a good reason to hold contradicting beliefs.

    U're r more than welcome ta drop me a line whenever u feel like startin' this discussion
    Thanks =) Will do!

    I'll have use this analogy again so plz bear wit me, that if a parent raises a child and that child grows inta adulthood, that moves out on his(her) own and; for all intents and purposes; is considered a free-will, independent being. Ur point sounds like that despite the fact that the child no longer lives wit his (her) parents and can fend for themselves, that the parent is still responsible for their child's actions. They r especially responsible for that child's actions if they had prior knowledge of said actions 'fore the child even began such actions and did little, if anythin', ta stop it. What I'm tryin' ta say is that the Parent is responsible for not attemptin' ta stop said actions (i.e they're own actions), not the actions of the child. I am also tryin' ta point out that, whose ta say that God hasn' tried ta warn us of impendin' dangers in his own way? We simply do not know, so if He's attempted ta warn us, does this mean that He is responsible for our own actions or lack thereof?
    Under the circumstances you just described, I'd agree with you about the parents. The parents are responsible for their own actions, since they could have stopped the child but didn't. If they didn't know what the child was going to do, or couldn't stop him, then of course they aren't responsible. What I don't understand, however, is why the conditions for responsibility are then changed when applied to God. Even if God tries to warn us in his own way, does that really remove him from responsibility since he has the power to stop it completely? Since God doesn't stop suffering, and he could stop suffering, the only sensible conclusion is that he wants suffering to continue. Do you believe that God is omnipotent? From what you write, it doesn't sound like you do.


    Im afriad the only one who can give you those... is God
    Whenever he's ready to start talking, I'm listening.

  5. #76
    Mage of Eternity Joe Mage is making a name for themselves Joe Mage is making a name for themselves Joe Mage's Avatar
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    Quote Originally Posted by loknkey View Post
    Yes, but certain possibilities are more probable than others. Although uncertainty may always be present, this is not a good reason to abandon evidence and rationality all together. Neither is uncertainty a good reason to hold contradicting beliefs.
    No one is askin' ta abandon evidence and rationality, I'm merely sayin' that one can' have complete reliance on that evidence and rational. For they r only part of the equations of life and can only provide part of the answers, not all. And even they can b contradictin' as well and considerin' that we r flawed creatures, could it not mean that evidence and rational could b jus' as flawed? My point is, that u can' expect ta find all of the answers in one given thing. U must look at every perspective, every angle and even then u may not find all of the answers; but u may find the answers that satisfy u.


    Under the circumstances you just described, I'd agree with you about the parents. The parents are responsible for their own actions, since they could have stopped the child but didn't. If they didn't know what the child was going to do, or couldn't stop him, then of course they aren't responsible. What I don't understand, however, is why the conditions for responsibility are then changed when applied to God. Even if God tries to warn us in his own way, does that really remove him from responsibility since he has the power to stop it completely? Since God doesn't stop suffering, and he could stop suffering, the only sensible conclusion is that he wants suffering to continue. Do you believe that God is omnipotent? From what you write, it doesn't sound like you do.
    I think that I'm not makin' myself clear, so I apologize if I'm not. Lemme try ta clear it up as best as possible, if God were ta interfere inta every aspect of our lives, so that we would never have sufferin', would we not then come ta depend upon him? Would we never have the ability ta think, act, and rationalize for ourselves? Ta have the ability ta solve our own problems? Remember what I said earlier bout the Bible sayin', "God helps those who help themselves." If He were constantly intervening in every crisis that happens ta Mankind, then would Mankind never learn ta become independent? Jus' because one can do somethin' doesn' mean that one should. How does this apply ta sufferin'? It applies 'cause we then learn how ta deal wit sufferin' on our own and on our own terms. He wants us ta do this, I believe, so that we can remain independent; He'll help guide us through a crisis, but he won' deal wit it for us. Does this make Him Non-Omnipotent? I don' think so, I think that it makes Him very wise and loving.




    Whenever he's ready to start talking, I'm listening.
    God's a weird one (Yes I said it) He doesn' speak ta us inna manner like we speak ta each other. He can send his voice onna gentle breeze, speak through a rustlin' of leaves, greet a person through a bird's song, or send a message by warmin' our hearts. My point is that He could very well b speakin' ta u, U jus' haven' noticed and not every1 does. This doesn' make u any less important in His mind nor is it gonna stop Him from speakin' ta u. U will know when u r ready ta listen and not 'fore then.

    Sanity doesn't exist, it's just an excuse cooked up by crazy people to justify their actions. My myspace page: www.myspace.com/joemage

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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    I think that I'm not makin' myself clear, so I apologize if I'm not. Lemme try ta clear it up as best as possible, if God were ta interfere inta every aspect of our lives, so that we would never have sufferin', would we not then come ta depend upon him? Would we never have the ability ta think, act, and rationalize for ourselves? Ta have the ability ta solve our own problems? Remember what I said earlier bout the Bible sayin', "God helps those who help themselves." If He were constantly intervening in every crisis that happens ta Mankind, then would Mankind never learn ta become independent? Jus' because one can do somethin' doesn' mean that one should. How does this apply ta sufferin'? It applies 'cause we then learn how ta deal wit sufferin' on our own and on our own terms. He wants us ta do this, I believe, so that we can remain independent; He'll help guide us through a crisis, but he won' deal wit it for us. Does this make Him Non-Omnipotent? I don' think so, I think that it makes Him very wise and loving.
    So what your saying is that God is not responsible for suffering (in the same way the parents would be responsible under the same conditions) because he has a good reason to allow suffering? (so we can learn, grow, etc..) So if suffering wasn't necessary for us to learn, grow, appreciate bliss, etc.. then he would be responsible. (as the parents would be in our analogy earlier) Am I following you correctly?

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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    Global warming, starvation, all that, dont blame that on god..! that s mankind written all over it. there are some people that think that everything bad out there is god's doing, its mankind!!!

  9. #79
    Mage of Eternity Joe Mage is making a name for themselves Joe Mage is making a name for themselves Joe Mage's Avatar
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    Quote Originally Posted by loknkey View Post
    So what your saying is that God is not responsible for suffering (in the same way the parents would be responsible under the same conditions) because he has a good reason to allow suffering? (so we can learn, grow, etc..) So if suffering wasn't necessary for us to learn, grow, appreciate bliss, etc.. then he would be responsible. (as the parents would be in our analogy earlier) Am I following you correctly?
    It's kinda like learnin' ta walk, when ur parents tell u stories of when u first learned ta walk, what did ur parents say they did? Did they coddle u, picked u up themselves and grabbed one foot and put it in front of the other for u? Or did they encourage u ta get back up and try again, on ur own? When u first learned how ta ride a bike, did ur parents coddle u when u fell and scraped ur knee or somethin', pick u back up and put u on the bike and hold the bike everytime u rode it? Or did they let go everytime so that u could learn ta ride on ur own? If they encouraged u ta walk rather than do the walkin' for u, if they let go of the bike rather than hold on; doesn' that mean that u r learnin' ta be independent? That they r tryin' ta teach u ta b as such? A wise man once said that a warrior learns more from his defeats than his victories. The same could b said of life as well, U learn more from the pitfalls than from the sucesses, 'cause then u r learnin' what not ta do.

    From what I can gather from ur statement, u're sayin' that everytime that a baby falls; while learnin' ta walk; it's the parents' fault for it. That they should wrap him in big fluffy pillows so that he wouldn' hurt himself when he fell. Or that they should pedal the bike for their child, so that he won' fall and scrape his knee or somethin', while he is learnin' ta ride. This is the impression that I'm bein' left wit from ur statements, U believe that God should coddle us. That He should b there wit big fluffy pillows for us ta land on whenever we fall and that it's His fault if He doesn'. He doesn' cause sufferin', we do, but yes He does allow it and wit good reason. Is He ta blame then? No, He isn'. Could He create a world sans Sufferin'? Probably, but what would we learn in that world? What would we gain? How would we grow? How could we become so much better than the sum of our parts? How could we then learn what not ta do?

    Sanity doesn't exist, it's just an excuse cooked up by crazy people to justify their actions. My myspace page: www.myspace.com/joemage

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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    Quote Originally Posted by atomik_sprout View Post

    Without Chaos there would be no Order and vice versa! Why do people think that God is so f*cked up for allowing sin to exist in the world? Isn't Good and Evil, God and The Devil pretty much Yin and Yang?

    Can anyone answer these questions truthfully?
    I don't believe in God, haven't been brought up with any religious beliefs and can't really fathom myself as a Religious person, but to pin peoples problems on God; whether he exists or not; is simply childish!

    If God did create us, he must've planned for us to start thinking for ourselfs at some point and actually take responsabilities for our own actions. God may have created us and maybe given guidance at some point, but to constantly look over our sholder and fix our mistakes would mean our existance is pointless.

    Take parenting for example. As a parent, the best you can do is teach your child basic morals (which are also determined by modern culture, but that's a rant for later), try and make them understand why people/society has adopted these morals and even some degree of respect. By the time they've reached 18 years it's pretty much a given that it's their time to make their own choices and learn from their own mistakes.
    Baldrick, you wouldn't see a subtle plan if it painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a Harpsichord sining "Subtle plans are here again!"

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