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Thread: The World Grows Angry @ God!

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    Newbie loknkey is off to a good start loknkey's Avatar
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    I'm not trying to say what God should and shouldn't do. That's an impossible argument anyways. Rather I'm arguing that God fits the conditions for responsibility. Not that we should be angry at him, but that we should understand that suffering exists because God wants it to exist.

    For instance, if someone intentionally harms another person, then we would usually say that he is responsible for this person's injuries. However, if the attacker had a good reason to injure the person, (let's say that it was somehow necessary in order to save the person's life) then we wouldn't normally hold the first person responsible. To use a more specific example, we don't usually consider a surgeon responsible for the incisions he inflicts on his patients. This I think is your point. God is like a surgeon (or a parent), which sometimes causes, or allows, a lesser injury in order to obtain a better result, or avoid a worse calamity. In the case of this universe, the better result is balance and freedom perhaps, or to avoid human puppets with no appreciation or will of their own. Are you with me so far? If this is what you are saying, then I would understand and agree if not for one other point, the point I'd like you to address. To return to the surgeon analogy, what if the surgeon could cure the patient without inflicting any harm? He was aware of his options, yet continued to perform surgery anyways. Wouldn't he then be responsible for causing needless injury to the patient? We would normally say yes.

    So does God need to allow suffering in order to balance the universe, like a surgeon needs to cut flesh to save lives? Is suffering not only necessary in this universe to realize a better good, but also necessary for God to create a better good? If so, then does this undermine God's omnipotence? Earlier you said that it doesn't, but how so? How can something be necessary to an all-powerful God? If it is not necessary, then how is God not responsible?

    Could He create a world sans Sufferin'? Probably, but what would we learn in that world? What would we gain? How would we grow? How could we become so much better than the sum of our parts? How could we then learn what not ta do?
    Couldn't God create a world in which we could gain, grow, become better than the sum of our parts, and still not contain any suffering? Again I'm not saying that he should, merely that he could. And if he could, then what reason is there to allow suffering? Can you see that God has no reason other than his own will?

  2. #82
    Mage of Eternity Joe Mage is making a name for themselves Joe Mage is making a name for themselves Joe Mage's Avatar
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    Quote Originally Posted by loknkey View Post
    I'm not trying to say what God should and shouldn't do. That's an impossible argument anyways. Rather I'm arguing that God fits the conditions for responsibility. Not that we should be angry at him, but that we should understand that suffering exists because God wants it to exist.

    For instance, if someone intentionally harms another person, then we would usually say that he is responsible for this person's injuries. However, if the attacker had a good reason to injure the person, (let's say that it was somehow necessary in order to save the person's life) then we wouldn't normally hold the first person responsible. To use a more specific example, we don't usually consider a surgeon responsible for the incisions he inflicts on his patients. This I think is your point. God is like a surgeon (or a parent), which sometimes causes, or allows, a lesser injury in order to obtain a better result, or avoid a worse calamity. In the case of this universe, the better result is balance and freedom perhaps, or to avoid human puppets with no appreciation or will of their own. Are you with me so far? If this is what you are saying, then I would understand and agree if not for one other point, the point I'd like you to address. To return to the surgeon analogy, what if the surgeon could cure the patient without inflicting any harm? He was aware of his options, yet continued to perform surgery anyways. Wouldn't he then be responsible for causing needless injury to the patient? We would normally say yes.

    So does God need to allow suffering in order to balance the universe, like a surgeon needs to cut flesh to save lives? Is suffering not only necessary in this universe to realize a better good, but also necessary for God to create a better good? If so, then does this undermine God's omnipotence? Earlier you said that it doesn't, but how so? How can something be necessary to an all-powerful God? If it is not necessary, then how is God not responsible?



    Couldn't God create a world in which we could gain, grow, become better than the sum of our parts, and still not contain any suffering? Again I'm not saying that he should, merely that he could. And if he could, then what reason is there to allow suffering? Can you see that God has no reason other than his own will?
    I like ur surgeon analogy and u're gettin' most, but not all, of my point. It's not so much if God could or couldn' remove an affliction, like a surgeon, but that he wants us ta learn ta do it ourselves. So that we can b independent of him, individuals who can stand on our own 2 feet alongside God. Ta that end we need our sufferin' ta help us learn and grow inta competent, independent individuals; like a child growin' inta adulthood, becomin' independent of their parents. It's the experience that God wants us ta seek and learn from, not the word. Sure u could read 'bout it inna book and learn that way, but how much different it would b if u went and experienced it for urself. Yet ta do so, u also must experience the pitfalls along the way, so that u can Experience what not ta do. That's the way that I equate a world sans sufferin', it's like readin' 'bout experiences from a book. Sure u could learn 'bout 'em in the comfort and safety of ur own chair and there's no risk involved. It won' hurt and u won' haveta jeopardize a thing, but it's not the same as goin' out and actually experiencin' it for urself. U then get a feel for the situation, u can actually grasp the experience for urself and ta do that properly; u must also experience any pitfalls. So is this happenin' by His will? Yes, I'm not disagreein' wit u on that one, but that doesn' mean that it's His fault that we suffer. Yes, He created it and yes, He allows it; but He has attempted ta show us how best ta avoid it. He's tried ta teach us how ta limit the sufferin' in our lives and He's given us gifts ta aid us in combatin' sufferin'. Things like Medical Science ta combat diesease, Government ta help us organize, Technology ta make our lives a little easier. One could argue that these r the invention of Man, not God and this is true; but wasn' it God who gave us our great intellect and intuitiveness ta create such things? One could easily make that arguement too. My point is this, we r responsible for our own sufferin', 'cause God has aided us time and again (in His own way) against this sufferin', w/o havin' ta interfere. He does that so that we can maintain our independence and can learn and grow through our experiences. We create children and when they grow inta adulthood; r we still responsible for them? We r the children of God and, I guess, u could say that Sufferin' is as well, but both have grown inta adulthood. So does that mean that God is still responsible for both?

    Sanity doesn't exist, it's just an excuse cooked up by crazy people to justify their actions. My myspace page: www.myspace.com/joemage

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    Newbie sarcosuchus is off to a good start sarcosuchus's Avatar
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    It is simple; it is written in the Bible that the world will be turned into damnation and no other works or faith will save them, today devils can easily possess a man's body; in our time devil possess a body but not controlling their mind like in the excorsit but they are the one who will be their conscince and will guide as their evil advisor so be prepare cause the end is really near.

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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    Quote Originally Posted by sarcosuchus View Post
    It is simple; it is written in the Bible that the world will be turned into damnation and no other works or faith will save them, today devils can easily possess a man's body; in our time devil possess a body but not controlling their mind like in the excorsit but they are the one who will be their conscince and will guide as their evil advisor so be prepare cause the end is really near.
    Umm... "evil" by any name does not posses people to do wicked things. As said before "It's all by choice and free will." Even if the actions that were commited by a person was horrible and evil. Evil, and god, has a pressence in this existance, but it does not monipulate or controle. Humans are not born good, nore are they evil. We are a nutral that acts out good or bad things, driven by many variables. How ever it all comes down to chioce to commit such acts, be it write or wrong.
    Also, what you are refering to is the appocolips which really means when translated from its origenal Hebrue meaning to "new beginning." A purification of the world, it does NOT mean that Hell and demons and monsters will ruel the world.

    Or something along those lines if any one wants to clarify.
    "MY DEAR... I GIVE YOU THE CAPELLAN CONFEDERATION"
    AND THUS THE WAR WAS STARTED NOT BY GUN SHOT BUT BY WEDDING BELLS

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    Newbie loknkey is off to a good start loknkey's Avatar
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    hello again, sorry it has taken me so long to respond.

    Joe Mage, it seems that your argument follows the following format. God is not responsible for suffering, because he has good reason to create/allow suffering. My disagreement with your argument is not against the reasons you give, but rather that God can have any reason at all. Usually when we say that someone has a reason for something, we mean that they acted with the expectation of acheiving a certain result. For an example, if I do X, then Y will follow. My reason for doing X, would be to produce Y. But let's say I could produce Y without doing X. Would I still have a reason to do X? Let's say that I could do anything or nothing, and still produce Y. Why would I choose X over an infinite number of other options, when any of the options would produce the same result? In this situation, it seems that I no longer have any reason to do X. Do you understand my reasoning here?

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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    Quote Originally Posted by loknkey View Post
    hello again, sorry it has taken me so long to respond.

    Joe Mage, it seems that your argument follows the following format. God is not responsible for suffering, because he has good reason to create/allow suffering. My disagreement with your argument is not against the reasons you give, but rather that God can have any reason at all. Usually when we say that someone has a reason for something, we mean that they acted with the expectation of acheiving a certain result. For an example, if I do X, then Y will follow. My reason for doing X, would be to produce Y. But let's say I could produce Y without doing X. Would I still have a reason to do X? Let's say that I could do anything or nothing, and still produce Y. Why would I choose X over an infinite number of other options, when any of the options would produce the same result? In this situation, it seems that I no longer have any reason to do X. Do you understand my reasoning here?
    I do understand what u're sayin' but I don' think that I'm makin' myself clear enough for u ta understand what I'm tryin' ta say. So let's try this; Let's say X is "Experience and Learnin'" and the Y result is "Freedom and Independence." W/o X we could never really have Y, sure we would could have it; but we would never full understand and apprieciate the gift that we have been given. We would only take it for granted and may even abuse it, like I stated 'fore; "It's not the Destination, but the Journey that matters." We need the Journey ta fully apprieciate the Destination. This is where God shows His great wisdom and understandin' of how ta get a real formula for life ta work. It's like in my analogy that I stated earlier, compare Climbin' Mount Everest ta havin' some1 fly u up there. Which would u apprieciate more?

    Sanity doesn't exist, it's just an excuse cooked up by crazy people to justify their actions. My myspace page: www.myspace.com/joemage

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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    I agree most of the content of your post. However, your description only relates to this universe, not to all possible universes. In another universe, it could be possible to acheive Y without X and still be able to understand and appreciate the gift we were given. Is this impossible? Perhaps in this universe. But to God, nothing is impossible. So we still need an explanation as to how God can have reason to allow suffering. In order to answer this, we need to answer how God can have a reason for anything at all. That is a key question to this conversation, and needs answered before we can move on.

    Let's say X is "Experience and Learnin'" and the Y result is "Freedom and Independence." W/o X we could never really have Y, sure we would could have it; but we would never full understand and apprieciate the gift that we have been given. We would only take it for granted and may even abuse it, like I stated 'fore; "It's not the Destination, but the Journey that matters."
    You could make Y to mean anything. Y could include appreciation and understanding, etc.... Couldn't God create Y exactly as if X had happened? If the answer is no, that Y wouldn't exactly be the same without X, then we would be placing a limit on God's power. We would be saying that it is impossible for God to create Y exactly the same as if X had happened. In that case, he is not omnipotent. If the answer is yes, then God has no reason to allow suffering. Of course, you might argue that God doesn't allow suffering, rather he created the entire universe 5 seconds ago, complete with our full memories of suffering that never happened. I wouldn't be able to argue with that =)

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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    Quote Originally Posted by atomik_sprout View Post
    Now, I've noticed a lot of comments goin' 'round in these religious debates about God and what-not. Comments like, "How come god doesn't stop the bad people from coming in to life?" and "I'd rather have Jesus than God," or "Why would god allow me to live through this bullsh*t??" Then there's the ever famous, "Chuck Norris is god!!" LOL, that last one's a joke.

    Either way, no matter how you slice it; people are angry at God. Now, I'm no Christian, but I was raised as one, so I've spent 18 years of my life in church, bible study and other various Christian learning retreats. I know my stuff and I think that those of you who claim to be Christian, but only accept Jesus, completely denying the fact that God is the same guy, or those of you who just completely blame all the hardship in your life on God need to really consider finding new religion or just read more deeply in to your scriptures.

    Why are more and more people becoming increasingly angry at God? Why is it that when something goes awry, or if someone just can't cope with life anymore, they always point the finger at God, instead of taking responsibility for their actions? Why are certain 'Christians' shunning God, but accepting Christ? That's like saying you're only 'half-christian' or a psuedo-believer.

    Without Chaos there would be no Order and vice versa! Why do people think that God is so f*cked up for allowing sin to exist in the world? Isn't Good and Evil, God and The Devil pretty much Yin and Yang?

    Can anyone answer these questions truthfully?
    Well my piont is that God has never been there for us he just sits there watching while we slowly kill ourselfs
    i cry inside for life anew i die each time im torn in two i live for earth and die for none along comes a god who will always bring peace and tranquility

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