loknkey

I read what you posted. You completely missed my point. If you can't have bliss without suffering, then God is not really all-powerful. Your beliefs are self contradicting.

rajendran

hmm but ain't it wierd when u actually pray to god and ask for something in return?? u get wad u asked for... in some wierd unexplainable ways but yes after that u'll know that god is hearing u god does influence certain things in your life...

Joe Mage

And I believe that u missed Atomik's point, it's not necessarilly contradictin' so much as usin' opposin' forces ta create a balance. Does this mean that God isn' all-powerful? Actually, I believe that it shows jus' how wise God really is. He understands the concepts of life and Free-will, better than any of us ever will. Lemme ask u this, Y is it that mankind learns through experience? And that if we learn through experience, doesn' that mean that we must experience everythin', both positive and negative, in order ta learn anythin'? It's our experiences, both positive and negative, that define us and w/o those experiences we would have no reason ta exist. I'm sure that u've seen zombie movies, haven' u? W/o our free-will and our experiences we would b no better than zombies, only we wouldn' b corpses. We would lack anythin' that would define us and even our individuality. By givin' us Sufferin', He has allowed us ta know and understand it and so thus know, understand, and apprieciate Bliss better than if we didn' have Sufferin'. So that we can strive for Bliss in our lives more and apprieciate the little things in life. I believe that this doesn' show a lack of power on the part of God, but much wisdom and a complete understandin' of Free-will and life that we couldn' even begin ta comprehend. Contradictin'? Not really, although life itself is a paradox, it is because of this paradox that Life itself is able ta exist.

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atomik_sprout

You totally don't understand if you think that way! Joe and I hasve explained why already.

Thanks, once again, Joe! Y'see? This is why people think that God's at fault for every bad choice they've made in their lives.

(As Joe pointed out) It's about balance! You ABSOLUTELY cannot have one without the other. God created that balance for a damn good reason. So we can understand what true happiness is like. People are born to suffer, born to walk the earth in search for happiness. Buddhists believe that you suffer your entire life until you finally have a clear view of reality and find that happiness you've been looking for and if you don't find it within this life time, Karma will make you repeat that search in the next life.

We suffer because you can't just be born in to happiness. Even kids born in to rich families are miserable. When you came out the womb where you laughing or crying? Order needs chaos, chaos needs order. Without one or the other, there is a huge unbalance and the world becomes a place nobody wants to be in. That's why God made that balance and gave us a choice, gave us free will. You can't say that your god isn't all powerful because you had to suffer for a little bit. It was your decision that brought on that suffereing (8 times out of ten; the other two are acts of God).

If I was God, that's how I'd run sh*t! There's no point in having a race of boring people inhabit the planet. The simple fact that we are born to find peace, love, happiness, compassion and understanding on our own through suffering is what separates us from other animals on the planet and keeps the world spinning. Suck on that Athiests!!!

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loknkey

I understand what you are saying, but your statements are based on the way things are now. It may be true that in this world there cannot be bliss without suffering. That's still not the point. If God was truly all-powerful, then he would not be limited to certain constructions of the universe, or rules. He could create an infinite amount of different kinds of universes, including one without suffering! God does not need to follow any rules about bliss and suffering. He made these rules! And that's ok. God can create a world of suffering. But let's be clear, he created a world of suffering because he wanted to, not because he had to.

Joe Mage

Ok, this is gonna sound a little cheesy, but have u ever watched Charmed? There were a series of episodes where a character named Gideon, the headmaster of a place called Magic School, wanted ta kill one of the children of the charmed ones cause of how powerful he was. His plan was ta tip the balance and distract the Charmed ones long enough ta carry out his plan. His plan kinda back fired though and created a world w/o sufferin', or any other negatives. In this world of bliss, one of the Charmed ones was shot 'cause she didn' move her car and the cop that shot her did it wit a smile.

My whole point is this, wit the negative aspects of our lives, we r able balance everythin' within our lives. W/o that balance, everythin' would b carried ta extremes, even in a world wit only bliss and that world wouldn' last very long. Could God create a world w/o sufferin'? Definitely, but would it b wise? No. Yes He created this world the way that he did 'cause he wanted ta, but that's 'cause he wanted it ta work. Jus' like this example, the world needs predators, for w/o predators who eat their prey; the prey would grow outta control and there would b little food for em. This is how a cheetah predatin' on an antelope benefits the herd of antelopes as well as the cheetah. This balance not only promotes survival, but understandin' as well. Bringin' my point back ta my example earlier, one of the Charmed ones had gotten shot by a cop who didn' understand and apprieciate life. In our world, she would have only gotten a warnin' or a ticket, in that world she got shot. A world of eternal bliss is a world of extremes and a world of extremes is a world wit limited choices, if any. In that world we wouldn' know and apprieciate life more and the very concept of Humanity wouldn' even exist. Not ta mention the total lack of Individuality that would occur, we would roam the world wit smiles onna our faces and we would take things for granted all the time. We wouldn' b able ta apprieciate "indepenent thought" 'cause it simply wouldn' exist. We would walk through the world, knowin' only Bliss and never knowin' how ta truly apprieciate it. That is a world that I wouldn' want ta b apart of. The real question isn' whether or not God can make a world w/o sufferin'; the real question is whether or not He should? In my mind the answer's already clear.

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TaurusDemon23

Let's quit blaming "god" all together and just accept the fact that humanity is just another in a long line of ****ed up species.......*shrug* Anyways, I think it's a sign of the times.......Faith is seriously at an all time low in the world. People are getting sick of waiting for "this god" or "that god" to show up and save them all. They're finally realizing that a savior might not come after all. That feeling of dread soon kicks in, and after a while, the natural step is anger. "Why were we so deceived?!WHY!!" Goodbye faith.

The revelation that there is no god is a hard pill to swallow indeed.........

Inuruto

OMG!!! ^_$ I don't know why I agree with you, but I do... It is about faith & once you lose that you just lose...

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loknkey

Joe Mage,

Couldn't God have created a world without suffering, without any of the problems you mentioned? Couldn't God have created a blissful universe perfect in every way? Although suffering may seem necessary to us, nothing is necessary to God. He could have created a blissful world AND individuality, free will, appreciation, humanity, etc... So from my humanly perspective, I would say that God should not have created a world full of suffering. If you could create a perfect world in which little children weren't occasionally hacked to death in Africa, why wouldn't you?

Joe Mage

He did create such a world, it was called the Garden of Eden, however u can' really have Free-Will w/o choice. If He would've kept us in the Garden, our choices would've been very limited. Much of the sufferin' in the world is caused by us, but on the other hand that our causin' such sufferin' has allowed us ta understand what it means ta b humane. It's 'cause of the what ppl put these children through that we r able ta simpathize wit their plight and can choose ta do somethin' 'bout it. If God were ta create such a world again, as u've mentioned, our personal freedoms would have ta b limited; there's an old sayin', "Everythin' has a price." If u want eternal bliss, u must b willin' ta sacrifice choice. Is that the coin of exchange that u r willin' ta make?


@TaurusDemon23- That's the problem, Every1's waitin' for God or a God ta come fix their problems, instead of tryin' ta deal wit those problems themselves. This doesn' mean that there isn' a God, it jus' means that we need ta stop bein' babies and learn ta stand on our own 2 feet. This is one of the problems wit Mankind, we create our own messes and look ta others ta come behind us and clean it up. So now our God(s) is a nurse-maid? It doesn' mean the we're #%&$ed up speicies, ta me it jus' shows that we need ta grow up and stop tryin' ta get others ta wipe our noses.

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loknkey

Why would our personal freedoms have to be limited? Isn't God powerful enough to create a world in which freedom could exist without suffering, even if we cannot imagine such a world? There are only two answers. Yes or No. If the answer is yes, then God is responsible for the suffering in this world. If the answer is no, then obviously God cannot be all-powerful.

Just to clarify, this argument is not intended to remove all responsibility from humans. Humans are responsible in as much as they can control their own actions, just as God is.