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Thread: The World Grows Angry @ God!

  1. #65
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    My life is a prime example as to why suffering is allowed to exist. My life has never been a bed of roses; it’s more like a bed of thorn bushes and itchy needles. For 19 years which was the majority of my life thus far was absolute hell, and I became very depressed do to a chemical imbalance in the old noodle. Sh*t happened me on a daily bases, now every one has that happen to them, some more then others and I am fairly certain that I am one of those people where bad things seam to fallow them around and happen with out provocation, and if that wasn’t all of it, people kicked me around, spat in my face, stabbed me in the back with one betrayal after another, and people were just total asses to me, and I grew to understand why people acted in this manner, and it sickened me as I watched how others treated one another the same way and then that person would do the same thing to another person and it just turned into crap rolling down hill. But I vowed to never mistreat another Human soul even when I despised Humanity and just watched it going down the gutter. I watched the true meaning of the word love being misused to simply get what people wanted and then through that person away as it were an empty paper rapper. As time went on I became more unstable and tried to kill my self several times but never fallowed through, probably because I thought I was missing something to what I was watching, and thus looked deeper into other people and my own thought process. Still nothing. Then one day I fell in love with a girl. She showed me many things on the other, better side of people, and my self for that matter. It was a heavenly bliss until 2 years later when it all blew up in our faces by out side forces and I spent 3 months trying to hold everything together but in the end failed. And now here I stand before you and every one else. A changed man. A wiser man, a man who can actually say I understand and know who I am, what I am capable of, and what is exactly in the world and how the universe all works as I see it as of now. Now I am only 21 and I still have a long road ahead of me and so I am constantly learning, constantly changing my views and idea with the new information I have gathered and shape them into and of my self into what it means to me and be able to better understand other people. So you see, there is a reason to suffer, even though mine is an extreme case of it, but I know I am not the only one. But the point is that all of that pain, suffering, and hardship had shaped me into a much, much, much better person. Do I ever want to go through that again? Hell no!! But do I regret what has happened and what I have learned be it beautiful or hideous despite the blood I have shed? Nope. I would not take back even a second of it.

    So this is my life as of this far in a nut shell. This is what I have learned and experienced and from it a deeper meaning of it all, and that deeper meaning is something that can not be explained to another, as its up to that other person to experienced and learned it first handed and take what you learned and experienced to shape them selves, to better define them self as a person. How ever not all get, some people get confused and misinterpret what they have learned and experienced. It doesn’t mean they are hopeless, just confused as they didn’t understand what was being presented to them or they rejected it because it was ugly to them, or they just didn’t want to face it so they hide.

    The point in all of this is that you are searching for an answer that we have been literally screaming to you, but are either, confused, rejected it because its ugly to you, or because you just don’t want to face it because its not what you expected it to be. So What I say to you is that you must experience it all on your own to fully grasp what it is that we are saying.
    Last edited by Scourge; Aug 19, 2008 at 07:35 AM.
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  3. #66
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    .... well I was late for this one but oh well here is my statement for the first question:

    "humans do not like things in other that they do not like in themself's"... if that makes scence to you people....so mybe people are angry at "god" because they are angry at themself's....
    death and life are one and the same

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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    I know I'm new to this debate... but I just wanted to throw in my couple of pennies, if I may. I think you are trying to hard to understand a God we are not capable of totaly grasping. You said yourself, that God is omniscient... We are not. So why are you trying so hard to get why God allows things to be what, and how they are? You can't!
    In all practicality, you are right. However it is something that I enjoy thinking about and discussing, so I don't see the harm in trying. And if we keep seeking, maybe there's a chance we will eventuallly find the impossible. People have been trying to understand God for centuries through religion and science. We may never truly understand him, but at least we can improve upon our old outdated ideas.

    You say God determines what is wise and what is not? How do you know that? God knows everything... and can do anything... That is your agument correct? So, think about what you've learned. Think about what you know to be true. Think about your ethics, and moral code. Once you've determined whats right and wrong, what makes sense to you... How likely is it that you'd change your mind? The real question is... Once you know that something is right... and that it makes sense.... aren't you bound by that? So maybe God did create natrual order... That doesn't mean he isn't bound by it. He is... because he knows everything... and he knows that natrual order makes sense. Just because you can do what ever you want... Doesn't mean you would do what makes no sense to you.
    This is very interesting, and you might have a point here. However, my only gripe is this....if God is the only self-existing entity, if he is the cause that caused all things, then there was no sense until he created sense. It seems that if God had chosen to create a different sort of universe, then he could made it just as sensible as the one we are in now. Let me ask you this...without the universe and all its natural laws and physics, would sensibility and rationality have any meaning? For an example, before anything existed at all, would cats giving birth to kittens make any more sense than kittens appearing out of finger nail clippings? This is why I don't think God created this specific universe in order to be reasonable or sensible. Rather he created this universe, and it was therefore rational. In this sense rationality (or what makes sense) is a description of the universe, not something that exists independently. Any other universe he could have created would be equally rational.

    Then I guess those humans who, by law, r incapable of controllin' their own actions shouldn' b committed ta an insane asylum; by ur reasonin'; we should jus' go on a execute them. I mean, u say that they're responsible for they're actions; nevermind the fact that there r experts who say differently
    I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Again I apologize for not being clear. Someone who could not control his actions would not be a good comparison because assumingly God can control his actions. Maybe I should have asked this first...what conditions must be met in order for someone to be responsible? For an example, Person A would be responsible for Occurance B if he _______. This is just to understand where you are coming from better.

    Joe Mage, I have read every word you've written very carefully and several times over. Maybe we are both talking past each other without really understanding what the other is saying. I feel like I understand the point you are trying to make, but that you aren't going deep enough. I don't just want explanations, I want explanations for the explanations. You just keep giving me the first layer of answers, when I want to the core. Or maybe I'm just missing the point entirely, in that case I'm sorry for making you repeat yourself. Please know that I would be happy to change my mind and admit my fault if shown an error in my argument. It's not about what I believe, or what you believe. It's about the truth. We can help each other to find it.

    I've answered the 2nd question 'bout sufferin'; w/o sufferin' we limit our options and so thus ourselves.
    After re-reading my post, I can see how I didn't phrase my questions very well. What I wanted was a reason for your explanations above. And then a reason for that reason, until we get to the very bottom reason.

    I think that u need ta reevaluate ur point and do some serious searchin', 'cause I think that u r still in the process of searchin' for the answers ta life and the things that r happenin' in it. Only then will u come ta ur own answers and b able ta understand this thing called "Life" and why we r here.
    You are right, and I hope to be forever searching. However, on this issue I think I have a valid point that no one has addressed yet. Except maybe Peach_follows.

    Scourge, I'm very sorry that you have suffered so much. And I'm glad that you have turned your hardships into something positive.

    The point in all of this is that you are searching for an answer that we have been literally screaming to you, but are either, confused, rejected it because its ugly to you, or because you just don’t want to face it because its not what you expected it to be. So What I say to you is that you must experience it all on your own to fully grasp what it is that we are saying.
    You have not yet answered my question. I realize that I may have done a poor job of explaining myself. I hope the above explanation I gave Joe Mage does a better job of revealing my point. I never said that suffering doesn't help us learn, or that suffering doesn't help us appreciate bliss. We agree on this issue.

  5. #68
    Mage of Eternity Joe Mage is making a name for themselves Joe Mage is making a name for themselves Joe Mage's Avatar
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    Quote Originally Posted by loknkey View Post
    This is very interesting, and you might have a point here. However, my only gripe is this....if God is the only self-existing entity, if he is the cause that caused all things, then there was no sense until he created sense. It seems that if God had chosen to create a different sort of universe, then he could made it just as sensible as the one we are in now. Let me ask you this...without the universe and all its natural laws and physics, would sensibility and rationality have any meaning? For an example, before anything existed at all, would cats giving birth to kittens make any more sense than kittens appearing out of finger nail clippings? This is why I don't think God created this specific universe in order to be reasonable or sensible. Rather he created this universe, and it was therefore rational. In this sense rationality (or what makes sense) is a description of the universe, not something that exists independently. Any other universe he could have created would be equally rational.
    And my point is that, for God ta create such a rational, he would had ta of learned it; therefore learned the wisdom ta create such a rational. Think of God as a perfect circle, learnin' and re-learnin', creatin' and re-creatin'. Jus' as a debate that I had wit a friend 'bout God bein' Perfect, as I responded ta him; "the real question isn' whether or not God is Perfect, but what is Perfection?" My point is this, it's not whether or not God is rational, but what exactly does "Rational" mean ta us?



    I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Again I apologize for not being clear. Someone who could not control his actions would not be a good comparison because assumingly God can control his actions. Maybe I should have asked this first...what conditions must be met in order for someone to be responsible? For an example, Person A would be responsible for Occurance B if he _______. This is just to understand where you are coming from better.
    This is 'cause u're comin' across inna manner that makes it seem that u're sayin' that God is ta blame for our actions and not us; 'cause He chooses not ta hover over us and warn us of every consequence of every decision we make. If I decide one day ta get up in the mornin' and eat Breakfast, even though my stomach is upset and it would most likely make me sick, that God is the blame for alertin' me ta what I'm about ta do? I'm jus' usin' this analogy ta understand ur point a little better. If this is what u're tryin' ta say; then I say, Who's ta say that He wasn' in his own way?


    Joe Mage, I have read every word you've written very carefully and several times over. Maybe we are both talking past each other without really understanding what the other is saying. I feel like I understand the point you are trying to make, but that you aren't going deep enough. I don't just want explanations, I want explanations for the explanations. You just keep giving me the first layer of answers, when I want to the core. Or maybe I'm just missing the point entirely, in that case I'm sorry for making you repeat yourself. Please know that I would be happy to change my mind and admit my fault if shown an error in my argument. It's not about what I believe, or what you believe. It's about the truth. We can help each other to find it.
    It's very possible that we r talkin' passed each other, it's good that u want explanations for the explanations. It's good, as I have said 'fore, ta answer every question and then question every answer; it's how we grow and learn. However the reason why it seems that I'm givin' u the "1st-layer" of answers is 'cause the deeper part is somethin' that each person must find on their own. I could give u the deeper answers that I've found, but they r My answers. I can' give u ur answers, u must do that on ur own, I can try ta help u find 'em; like I'm tryin' ta do now; but I can' give em ta u. If I do that, then I rob u of the very freedom that u have been blessed wit. Each person must come ta terms wit life, happiness, sorrow, death, and even God on their own.


    You are right, and I hope to be forever searching. However, on this issue I think I have a valid point that no one has addressed yet. Except maybe Peach_follows.
    What Peach said was, more or less, what I've been tryin' ta say; except that it was a better explaination 'cause it was more down ta earth (I've got ta start rememberin' ta start puttin' that lead inta my shoes, lol). She's a very wise person and can come up wit better analogies than I can and she's absolutely correct wit her analogy. Yet it is also as I have stated 'fore, Each person must come ta their own conclusions 'bout Life, Happiness, Peace, Sorrow, Loss, War, and even God. And, much like wit the differin' species and ppl of the world, no 2 ppl r gonna come up wit exactly the same answers. This is what makes life so interestin' and excitin'. I hope that, wit this post, I've cleared up any miscommunications that I may have been the cause of.

    Sanity doesn't exist, it's just an excuse cooked up by crazy people to justify their actions. My myspace page: www.myspace.com/joemage

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  7. #69
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    In all practicality, you are right. However it is something that I enjoy thinking about and discussing, so I don't see the harm in trying. And if we keep seeking, maybe there's a chance we will eventuallly find the impossible. People have been trying to understand God for centuries through religion and science. We may never truly understand him, but at least we can improve upon our old outdated ideas.
    You are absolutely justified in having your outlook. I won't argue with that. But I can't agree with you in saying there could never be any harm in it either. It is possible to get so involved into a search, that you miss what it is you're looking for. I have done my share of questioning, believe me. And, I still do. I believe it is healthy and essential in making progress. But, you have to know when to be at peace with an answer.

    Also, (I can only speak for myself, and the church where I've gained most my religious knowledge) one of the main principals -I- was taught in church. Was NOT understanding God... But, rather TRUSTING God. Not to say that I agree with that notion whole heartedly. As I said earlier, I think a healthy desire to learn is vital. But, I feel much better when I can accept that the burden of infinate knowledge is not mine to bear. Sometimes its ok to let go, with the understanding that we are just not meant to know it all. Honestly, why would you want to? Thats why they say ignorance is bliss.


    This is very interesting, and you might have a point here. However, my only gripe is this....if God is the only self-existing entity, if he is the cause that caused all things, then there was no sense until he created sense. It seems that if God had chosen to create a different sort of universe, then he could made it just as sensible as the one we are in now. Let me ask you this...without the universe and all its natural laws and physics, would sensibility and rationality have any meaning? For an example, before anything existed at all, would cats giving birth to kittens make any more sense than kittens appearing out of finger nail clippings? This is why I don't think God created this specific universe in order to be reasonable or sensible. Rather he created this universe, and it was therefore rational. In this sense rationality (or what makes sense) is a description of the universe, not something that exists independently. Any other universe he could have created would be equally rational.
    Have you ever been told to do a project in school, did it, only to find out you're displeased with the outcome... So you had to start over? Who is to say God hasn't created some alternate universe we are unaware of? I mean this is God we're talking about... So its possible right? Whos to say WE are not the product of Gods learning process. Perhaps we are Gods impovement.

    We are created in Gods imgage (according to the Bible). One of our biggest traits is that we are driven by love and emotion. By acceptance, and recognition. Things (If you can even call them "things") that we feel. Is it fair to assume that perhaps God is driven by feeling to an extent? Maybe he tried to have complete control, and perfection. In a world where all suffering was omitted. And maybe that world made total sense to those who inhabited it. But, perhaps, being creator of such beings... was unfufilling. Because maybe just maybe God seeks aknowledgement, just as we tend to do. Do you think it is possible to create appreciation or love, all on your own (even if you're God)? Maybe its not.... I think in order to obtain these emotions they have to be RECIEVED not created... It would have to be the outcome of another being bestowing them apon you. And, for it to be sincere, it would have to be the choice they make.

    The problem with digging this deep is... you can only speculate. You can make 1,000 assumptions. Go off on 1,000 different tangents. And, all you would get from it is 1,000 different possiblities. No certain answers.

    I think that is perhaps why Joe was stressing how we each have to sort through as many of the possibilties presented to us... and find our OWN answers.
    Last edited by Peach_follows; Aug 20, 2008 at 06:49 PM.
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    And my point is that, for God ta create such a rational, he would had ta of learned it; therefore learned the wisdom ta create such a rational. Think of God as a perfect circle, learnin' and re-learnin', creatin' and re-creatin'.
    Maybe, but if God is omniscient, then it doesn't seem that he would even need to create something in order to learn. He would already know what would happen. Also does God create something to "find out" what will happen? Or does he create something designed to produce a desired result? And what could he learn, when nothing happens except by his own creation?

    Jus' as a debate that I had wit a friend 'bout God bein' Perfect, as I responded ta him; "the real question isn' whether or not God is Perfect, but what is Perfection?" My point is this, it's not whether or not God is rational, but what exactly does "Rational" mean ta us?
    This would be an interesting topic if you'd care to discuss it sometime. I thought about this alot when questioning whether or not God was good, and came to a similar conclusion that you did above.

    This is 'cause u're comin' across inna manner that makes it seem that u're sayin' that God is ta blame for our actions and not us; 'cause He chooses not ta hover over us and warn us of every consequence of every decision we make. If I decide one day ta get up in the mornin' and eat Breakfast, even though my stomach is upset and it would most likely make me sick, that God is the blame for alertin' me ta what I'm about ta do? I'm jus' usin' this analogy ta understand ur point a little better. If this is what u're tryin' ta say; then I say, Who's ta say that He wasn' in his own way?
    Before we argue any further, could you first explain what is required to be responsible? Otherwise, I think we will keep going in circles. What makes a person responsible for something?

    The problem with digging this deep is... you can only speculate. You can make 1,000 assumptions. Go off on 1,000 different tangents. And, all you would get from it is 1,000 different possiblities. No certain answers.

    I think that is perhaps why Joe was stressing how we each have to sort through as many of the possibilties presented to us... and find our OWN answers.
    I want concrete answers dammit!

  10. #71
    Mage of Eternity Joe Mage is making a name for themselves Joe Mage is making a name for themselves Joe Mage's Avatar
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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    Quote Originally Posted by loknkey View Post
    Maybe, but if God is omniscient, then it doesn't seem that he would even need to create something in order to learn. He would already know what would happen. Also does God create something to "find out" what will happen? Or does he create something designed to produce a desired result? And what could he learn, when nothing happens except by his own creation?
    One could very well ask those same questions of me, a writer and artist, or of an composer, or a child down the street, etc. We can not know exactly what goes on in an individual's head, what they're think, what result that they r hopin' for, etc.; we can only know the general idea. Whose ta say that God, as Peach has already stated, hasn' created other worlds and species; simply put; We don' know. Jus' as God is suppose ta b infinite, the possibilities r too.



    This would be an interesting topic if you'd care to discuss it sometime. I thought about this alot when questioning whether or not God was good, and came to a similar conclusion that you did above.
    U're r more than welcome ta drop me a line whenever u feel like startin' this discussion.

    Before we argue any further, could you first explain what is required to be responsible? Otherwise, I think we will keep going in circles. What makes a person responsible for something?
    My apologies, it's no my intention ta lead u around in circles, I'm jus' tryin' ta gauge a better understandin' of what u think it means ta b Responsible. The way that u r comin' across it sounds like, I'll have use this analogy again so plz bear wit me, that if a parent raises a child and that child grows inta adulthood, that moves out on his(her) own and; for all intents and purposes; is considered a free-will, independent being. Ur point sounds like that despite the fact that the child no longer lives wit his (her) parents and can fend for themselves, that the parent is still responsible for their child's actions. They r especially responsible for that child's actions if they had prior knowledge of said actions 'fore the child even began such actions and did little, if anythin', ta stop it. What I'm tryin' ta say is that the Parent is responsible for not attemptin' ta stop said actions (i.e they're own actions), not the actions of the child. I am also tryin' ta point out that, whose ta say that God hasn' tried ta warn us of impendin' dangers in his own way? We simply do not know, so if He's attempted ta warn us, does this mean that He is responsible for our own actions or lack thereof?


    I want concrete answers dammit!
    Very difficult wit a subject like this, cause there's no concrete (accordin' ta science) evidence that God even exists. However even science has stated that 'cause there is a lack of evidence of somethin', doesn' mean that it doesn' exist. When there is a lack of evidence of the existence, or non-existence, that either could could b the case. It seems strange ta me that even 'fore the inception of science that the Bible states that God wants us ta believe in Him on Faith only. It's as if God knew that somethin' like science was goin' ta b created and knew that it would call inta question His existence.

    What does this haveta do wit this? Faith and Philosophy, although not exactly the same, run along similar premises and on a subject like this, u're leavin' the realm of science and logic and enterin' the realm of Faith and Philosophy. Each of the answers, u'll find, r as wide and varied as the individuals of this world. This is Y I stress that u must find ur own answers, no one will give u exactly the same answers. These "Concrete Answers" that u r lookin' for, no one can give 'em ta u. U must search for ur own answers and even then it's highly doubtful that they will ever b "Concrete." However they will b ur answers, answers that should satisfy u. In the end, that's the only thing that should matter.

    Sanity doesn't exist, it's just an excuse cooked up by crazy people to justify their actions. My myspace page: www.myspace.com/joemage

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    Re: The World Grows Angry @ God!

    I want concrete answers dammit!
    Im afriad the only one who can give you those... is God.
    ... Not Ever Again...

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